I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now • Hacker News Board

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#861

Post by kristopolous » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 8:08 PM UTC

burntoutfire wrote: post #677

kristopolous wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> google, gmail, chrome, iphones There's four excellent examples of things that were better 10 years ago before this practice was instituted. The youngest thing on that list (chrome) is 14 years old. Both Apple and Google used to not hire in this 3-4 interviews of canned programming question way. Then they did. Those products are now stagnating and deteriorating so much that it's obvious to everyone. If you think it'…

> There's four excellent examples of things that were better 10 years ago before this practice was instituted. FWIW, I interviewed with Google in 2009 and the interview was 100% pure leetcode (not even design/architecture questions). It was exactly a series of four back-to-back 1-on-1 meetings, which consisted of "Hello" followed by an algorithmic puzzle. If anything they seem to have broadened the scope of interview…

Alright. I stand corrected. I also went to San Francisco job interviews around 2005 or so and found that. I was turned off by them back then as well.

I'm not a researcher in the field but I'd love to see some study. Let's say measuring for deadline slippage, budget overshot, and retention rate.

The testing groups will be teams that use these tactics almost exclusively and those that use a variety of other methods.

If my assumption that this is a mostly arbitrary attribute is correct, their averages would be nearly the same.

If they produce statistically better results then I'd literally quit my job and go work for one. I'd be happy to be wrong about this but I don't think I am

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#862

Post by kristopolous » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 8:16 PM UTC

fourthark wrote: post #814

kristopolous wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> google, gmail, chrome, iphones There's four excellent examples of things that were better 10 years ago before this practice was instituted. The youngest thing on that list (chrome) is 14 years old. Both Apple and Google used to not hire in this 3-4 interviews of canned programming question way. Then they did. Those products are now stagnating and deteriorating so much that it's obvious to everyone. If you think it'…

I doubt the stagnation is the fault of poor hiring practices. More likely has to do with monopolization and business models that favor advertising over users.

Can you elaborate? I'd like to hear your thoughts

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#863

Post by cutemonster » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 8:17 PM UTC

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #778

llamajams wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im going to have to disagree based on personal experience at my huge ass fortune 50 megacoprp. They JUST started adopting agile...JUST, I kid you not many teams are still officialy waterfall, even officially agile teams are effectively waterfall. It's going to take another 5 years for anything to stop looking like waterfall. And let me tell you, as much as people hate agile, the old way is not working, it may even ta…

Yeah, Agile is not the OP's problem. Some director made some comments about a direction, and zoom! Off all the middle managers went, trying to kiss up to him, and implement what he said in the most dramatic way, in order to get that next promotion, or at least more headcount. And now it's, "Just the way we do things around here. Like it or leave." His problem, as with all these types of things, is management. Of all…

> past a certain size -- and that's not really very large

A number range for when it starts getting really dangerous would be interesting

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#864

Post by elihu » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 8:19 PM UTC

lc9er wrote: post #641

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

Sounds like you are describing “institutional knowledge”. In addition to good documentation, an org needs to maintain employee retention, so you have people that know the what and why’s of all the automated processes you’re seeing.

Institutional knowledge is an okay thing, the problem is when it's passed down by oral tradition or actively kept secret unless you email exactly the right question to the right person.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#865

Post by hiq » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 8:22 PM UTC

WoahNoun wrote: post #159

Apocryphon wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, dissatisfaction about engineering work conditions at AMZN (the notorious PIP culture) is a rising deterrent.

PIP severance after 2 years is just an early RSU payout and then you can get another job with a signing bonus.

> you can get another job with a signing bonus

Not exactly on your schedule though.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#866

Post by ngngngng » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 8:23 PM UTC

stingraycharles wrote: post #846

I once had a recruiter tell me: “Elon Musk is one of the easiest people on earth to poach senior leadership out from under.” After eighteen months in the gulag of rocketry/EVs, many managers are ready to cry “Uncle”. As a non-native speaker, I have the hardest time parsing this sentence, could anyone help me out? What does it mean when someone poaches “leadership out from under” — does it mean that leadership grows i…

“Poach senior leadership out from under” means “steal away from.” So it’s easy to hire senior leadership from companies run by Musk. “Cry uncle” is an idiom meaning “admit defeat”. So they work there for 18 months, realize they can’t handle it, and admit defeat and quit.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#867

Post by hiq » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 8:37 PM UTC

lostcolony wrote: post #114

Der_Einzige wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was looking for this comment. The OP and the current top comment seem to think that many engineers wouldn't jump for 10-20K increases. While that is true if they are in a good role, many salary increases from jumping are high double digits right now. Compensation, WLB, and benefits matter FAR FAR more for the majority of people than "good projects" or "smart colleagues". If you want those and can't get it in your j…

One other thing - in evaluating a new role, the thing I can be SURE of...is comp. Everything else is a nicety, but I can't rely on it. So if I'm looking to jump...well, either my current environment isn't great, or the salary is enough to attract me. There is no situation where my current environment is good, and you offer me a salary comparable to what I'm making, and I would make the jump, because you are a -comple…

> But ultimately the only thing I can truly rely on, that is protected by law, is compensation.

In some countries, the working time is also protected by law, hence your hourly wage as well, which makes it easier to compare offers. Too many people focus on the TC without realizing that working 2x the time for 1.5x the pay is often not worth it.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#868

Post by hiq » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

Qub3d wrote: post #739

> If you’re a strictly B2B company, you work when businesses work. That means “9-5” schedules, most major holidays observed, and almost no weekend pager duty. Mention this to your prospects. A sane workplace with defined starts and ends to the workday is very attractive to a certain kind of engineer - the kind that likes to be home for dinner, and read their children bedtime stories, for example. I am the "kind of en…

> I have been able to focus on my writing and speaking

How did you do that?

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#869

Post by sgerenser » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

ricardobayes wrote: post #556

exdsq wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay sure, but it’s hardly the case one can just join a FAANG company at a senior level to earn $500k easily as OP suggests. Want to retire early? Easy! Just become a managing partner at JP Morgan in your late 20s and you’ll be rich enough by 30.

Although I have yet to see a person with no lifestyle creep in these kinds of jobs. You start earning, you start spending. Yes, some people don't, but I keep hearing sad stories on that front too (guy did FIRE only for his wife to leave him after 6 months because they didn't keep up with the Kardashians. Some people feel mega-excluded if they can't partake in casual conversations like 'we are shopping for a new expen…

I don't know if this is who you were talking about, but this guy was a big FIRE proponent/blogger who posted last year about his divorce after not updating his blog for several years: https://livingafi.com. It took a few years of early retirement and his coming down with a medical condition, though: "During this time of physical rehabilitation, while I was struggling with the physical issues, my partner finally figured out what would make her happier. It was a relationship with another man."

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#870

Post by loeg » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

colonwqbang wrote: post #562

reikonomusha wrote: post #29

Purely anecdotal: In my experience as a hiring manager seeing trends change over the past 10 years, and selecting from the top 10% of candidates by some vague metric, it's primarily about "does it pay a lot" and secondarily "does it offer full-remote"? A lot of my friends, former colleagues, and candidates I've failed to hire end up going to either a FAANG or a very successful brand-name company (typically a SV compa…

I'm not a US person. Is it common to see a 50-100% pay raise on switching jobs? Sure if you pay me twice my current salary, I will probably do whatever you ask me to without complaint. But around here such a big pay increase would be a fantasy.

There are differences on that order of magnitude between tier 2 and tier 1 employers at the same seniority, and between different seniority levels. So yes these bumps exist, but it’s not like they stack repeatedly if you switch 4 times.