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Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

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Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#81
post #10

The bigger question is "why now". Ukraine is not joining NATO or the EU any time soon. Russia has de facto annexed Crimea and its ongoing support for separatists in Donbas keeps the region unstable to its advantage. I suspect two reasons: Putin's flagging domestic support and Russia's (and to be honest, the world's) perception that America is currently so divided and weak it will be unable to offer much resistance th…

Because Russia is failing apart. People living in post Soviet sphere see how other countries are developing. Ukraine had higher GDP per capita than Poland - now it's 4x lower. It's true for every single place from Kaliningrad, Caucasus to Vladivostok. They are worse off they their neighbours for purely political reasons.

Only thing that holds everything together is the authoritarian regime with strong military and natural resources. The problem is the world will become less dependant on fossil fuels and mining in Siberia is more expensive than pretty much everywhere. Russia won't be able to pay for the army.

This is an existential treat to the Russian state, hence the war is very likely.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#82
post #7
post #3

It's funny when the aggressor is "negotiating" to attack or not. The biggest bully in the region feeling "threatened" by its neighbours seeking any possible way to protect themselves from it. Like a government-level "Why are you hitting yourself?"

Crazy idea of the day: why not offer NATO membership to both Ukraine and Russia? Then if either side attacks the other, all the other members are obligated to defend against the aggressor. Entangling alliances are like abstraction. The only thing that solves it is more of it.

Because then nothing protects members from Russia. If two NATO members go to war, there is no clear side to take.

Also, Russia does not want to join. They want the USSR back

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#83
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair Crimea does have a majority ethnic Russian inhabitants. Wikipedia lists Crimea's demographics as 65% while others were lower at 58% or thereabout. Given many of those Russians were there from the Soviet era or direct descendants, it doesn't seem too crazy of a claim. The US and NATO countries have done worse for less. Now invading Ukraine? Thats another thing altogether.

There was no imminent danger to those inhabitans when Russia annexed. They just seized the opportunity to take back important xUSSR territory. The inhabitants are mostly happy, though, as they were promised new horizons and no mandatory Ukrainian language, which they never spoken. All these regional problems are mainly due to the language. If Ukraine allowed Russian as it's second official (or at least regional) lang…

Russia has controlled Crimea since the 18th century. It's not an artifact of Soviet Union.

>All these regional problems are mainly due to the language. If Ukraine allowed Russian as it's second official (or at least regional) language, Donbas would return back in a blink. And Crimea might follow.

What? History goes back farther than the 20th century.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#85
post #10

The bigger question is "why now". Ukraine is not joining NATO or the EU any time soon. Russia has de facto annexed Crimea and its ongoing support for separatists in Donbas keeps the region unstable to its advantage. I suspect two reasons: Putin's flagging domestic support and Russia's (and to be honest, the world's) perception that America is currently so divided and weak it will be unable to offer much resistance th…

> "why now" Armenia just lost a war [1]. Minsk is swallowed by protests [2]. Kazakhstan is now facing protests [3]. That's half the CSTO members [4]. Meanwhile, Georgia and Ukraine are reminders to disheveled Russians that democracy for former Soviet members can work. (Also Nord Stream [5].) The cause for action begins and ends with domestic politics vis-a-vis Putin, who has created a system where losing power means…

Eh, Armenia losing its war wasn't particularly detrimental to the Russian interests in the Transcaucasia - if anything it helped bring Pashinyan back into the fold, as evidenced by him embracing CSTO during the Kazakh unrest.

Minsk is also hardly "swallowed by protests" right now, they've succeeded in driving all resistance back underground.

I agree that the post-Soviet world is in a bit of a crisis but it's not particularly more crisisy than normal. Putin's just getting older.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#86
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no imminent danger to those inhabitans when Russia annexed. They just seized the opportunity to take back important xUSSR territory. The inhabitants are mostly happy, though, as they were promised new horizons and no mandatory Ukrainian language, which they never spoken. All these regional problems are mainly due to the language. If Ukraine allowed Russian as it's second official (or at least regional) lang…

But don't they have the right of self-determination if they want to join Russia?

They can move to Russia. They have as much right to move Crimea to Russia as citizens of Maine do to leave the US and join Canada - e.g. not much.

This is all hypothetical though. What happened in reality is that Russia rolled tanks into a neighboring sovereign country, invading it, and stole a part of it. It's a blatant and egregious act of war.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#87
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. I mean, isn't this also the tactic used in the late 1800s in the western U.S. to give a reason to pacify Native Americans? Promote U.S. citizens into frontier homesteads and then use the military to protect them/annex land?

Not sure why’re your bringing the U.S. into this right now to bash it. If anything increased U.S. military presence in Poland is sorely needed.

>If anything increased U.S. military presence in Poland is sorely needed.

Why? What purpose does this serve?

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#88
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crazy idea of the day: why not offer NATO membership to both Ukraine and Russia? Then if either side attacks the other, all the other members are obligated to defend against the aggressor. Entangling alliances are like abstraction. The only thing that solves it is more of it.

The problem is that at that point the USA, Canada, France, Italy would be obligated to defend Russia if it was attacked by sending in its forces. This is already the problem we face in the Baltic States. In theory you can say you will go to war if Estonia is attacked. But if you are Italy or Canada how popular is a war in Estonia going to be if your citizens are dying? There would be a lot of pressure to pull out. On…

> But if you are Italy or Canada how popular is a war in Estonia going to be if your citizens are dying?

This is why all the baltic states have multi-country forces in them. Literally small Canadian and Italian forces are in those states, so if there is ever an invasion, those troops will the first casualties that will win the hearts and minds of the rest of NATO countries to defend because of the losses of their own countrymen.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#89
post #3

It's funny when the aggressor is "negotiating" to attack or not. The biggest bully in the region feeling "threatened" by its neighbours seeking any possible way to protect themselves from it. Like a government-level "Why are you hitting yourself?"

I agree that Russia is the bully in this case, but there is historical precedent for the bully to be the country that feels threatened. Before WW2 some Germans thought the that Germany would have to ally itself-- and become a client state-- to either the USSR or western powers in order to maintain its security. Going to war was insane, but the concern that Germany would become more of a client state than an independe…

> but there is historical precedent for the bully to be the country that feels threatened.

Not really. Napoleon invasion was a rather silly directed move for a battle, not a war - too much weight on one individual. Great Patriotic War was fought after failure to prevent Hitler from amassing power and nurturing plans to conquer Europe (by Russians) - USSR needn't to repeat Daladier and Chamberlain mistakes, but Stalin had other plans. And since WWII there weren't aggressions against USSR/RF.

> the concern that Germany would become more of a client state than an independent power was not insane with historical hindsight

And after badly failing at war, Germany now is a leading European nation, one of the world leaders. Surely Russia should be relieved regarding falling to client state?

> A Russian strategist might feel threatened because down the line Russia may have depend on its security from either China or a European alliance.

That's a bad strategist, especially if he seeks possibilities only in realm of realpolitik and dismisses long-term trends both in Russia and worldwide.

> But if you think about things like Brexit or some economically undermining policies of MAGA, it seems possible that people -- even in a democracy-- attach more psychic weight to the idea of their nation and its greatness than they do to changes in material prosperity.

It sounds insane to compare the Brexit or the MAGA disaster to a war in Europe. If people attach more psychic weight - which in Russia they don't - what explanations of the position the Russian powers did to deal with that?

How the Great Britain deals with the idea of their nation and its greatness?

How come Russian decision makers avoid straightforward approaches which helped so many others in recent and not so recent past - like in Eastern Europe or among the Asian-Pacific nations? Not wanting to understand the consequences of autocracy does hurt badly - maybe not directly to the autocrat, but to the people for sure.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#90
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crazy idea of the day: why not offer NATO membership to both Ukraine and Russia? Then if either side attacks the other, all the other members are obligated to defend against the aggressor. Entangling alliances are like abstraction. The only thing that solves it is more of it.

Because then nothing protects members from Russia. If two NATO members go to war, there is no clear side to take. Also, Russia does not want to join. They want the USSR back

>They want the USSR back

No, they don't, and I don't understand why people (Americans in particular?) seem to think this. Is it just nostalgia for the first Cold War?

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