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Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

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Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#311

Post by kkjjkgjjgg »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #255
kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually aggressively promoting "diversity" (like forcing people into diversity trainings) would count as toxic workplace culture to me.

I'm a straight white cis male well into adulthood and somehow I've never been "forced" into this diversity training you're concerned about. I've never seen it happen. I don't know a single coworker who has had it happen to them. I don't know a single friend who has. If you've been "forced" into diversity training, especially if it's happened to you more than once and doubly so if it hasn't happened to others on your…

It doesn't exist because you never experienced it? There are lots of stories about places that demand it (usually big companies and government, I suppose).

For example Google was in the news several times for woke upheavals. Not sure if they do actual diversity training, but it does sound like a toxic workplace.

Also interesting how quick you are to suggest the need for diversity training, while being adamant that no such pressure exists.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#312

Post by aksss »

varelse wrote: post #294
simplestats wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "at will" the right term here? What's the alternative, granting you tenure at their little company or something? If you are an at-will employee who is kept around, then might that demonstrate actual loyalty (and probably higher pay) versus being at a place that is prohibited by law from laying you off without good cause? Perhaps you mean if they treat employees like a commodity. They can do that withoug laying peo…

If I have to sign an agreement that gives my employer permission to terminate me at any time for any reason with or without cause, they should not be surprised that it also grants me the right to quit at any time for any reason with or without cause. And yet, all that fuss about these job hoppers. How about creating an environment and culture where sticking around beats job hopping instead? As for the alternative? Ch…

Employment contracts are a double-edged sword that would warrant their own discussion.

Also you’re not really signing an agreement that they can fire you, you’re signing an acknowledgement of the at-will employment status so you can’t claim any illusions that you had an employment contract, but that status is typically derived from state law and advertised on the job posting you applied for. That paper you’re signing is about the same as an acknowledgement of the warning that you shouldn’t eat tide pods. It’s there because stupid people have necessitated it.

Speaking as a long time employee and now as an owner/employer, I’ve always thought people who bristle at at-will employment don’t really get it — it’s a two-way street, as an employee you can leave anytime, being considerate of professional courtesy for notice, etc.

I was always highly confident in my value and skills, so the idea of an employer randomly laying me off was never an issue - their loss more than mine. Your life will be far less stressful if you can develop that mental confidence and self-actualization, and if there is something preventing it, work on that. Specifically, if you feel lucky to have been employed in your field, and are barely hanging on to your job, maybe you should find a better field?

At-will employment should not even remotely be a big concern in life. Talent is hard to find - there’s more money than talent out there.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#313

Post by KuhlMensch »

deepsquirrelnet wrote: post #266

Another swing and miss. I don't think this is so hard. The pandemic is waking people to the reality of their own mortality. Suppose you're working a job in a big, highly dysfunctional organization. Most of us who have been there know that these jobs often pay well -- but in trade, you're selling your precious hours to execute a random series of essentially meaningless events (and under pressure to get it done). Now a…

This me.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#314

Post by sheepybloke »

There's a lot of talk of compensation here, but I do think it's more connected to toxic work culture. I left my job in March after my company aimed to lay off 25% of its workforce after the pandemic hit. It was hard, because while our revenues dropped substantially, we had just made huge profits the previous year. I understood the reasons why they wanted to cut, but it just felt reactionary and not forward looking, especially when we had a couple big projects on the way. Add in a couple of years of feeling like I wasn't getting recognized for my performance and the realization that I was probably going to be put into an overworked code monkey position, I decided it was time to move on. I think this is much more like what people are feeling now than just a thirst for more money.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#315

Post by oblio »

goodpoint wrote: post #208
_Wintermute wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as a counter-point, I live and work in London. I can't imagine ever being able to buy a home here unless something drastically changes, house prices are close to 10x my annual salary.

> house prices are close to 10x my annual salary Plenty of people in the world save for 20 years for a house. https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/price-gdp-per-cap

And historically houses have always been hovering around the same 20x multiplier for desirable places, except for a few small blips like the postwar boom.

And of course stuff like the American westward expansion, because land was dirt cheap as were materials (everything was forested so you just had to start chopping, more or less).

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#316

Post by hnfong »

pedrosorio wrote: post #251
marcyb5st wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Googler working in Switzerland and have been offered the same package and I refused the offer almost on the spot. There are 3 reasons for me: 1) Salary change not worth it. Switzerland already pays a lot and for me it's the sweet spot for quality of living / disposable income. Considered the cost of living in SV I would be saving more or less the same amount of money regardless of the bump in compensation. 2) U…

To be fair regarding 3) nothing forces you to commute for an hour on 101. That will be the case (riding a comfortable shuttle with WiFi) if you work in Mountain View and want to live in San Francisco (65km away). You can either move (much) closer to the office or just work in San Francisco (more likely if you find another employer).

The 45+min bus ride from SF is not exactly pleasant either. When I was in SF I took a daily shuttle that went on the more scenic I280, but staring at those meadows and hills got boring after a couple months. The GP can get to office in 12 minutes.

Moving much closer obviously makes the monetary aspect of the proposition much less enticing since the rent is ridiculous. And if you happen to hit peak traffic where everyone is trying to leave the office, even being physically close might not get you home in 12 mins.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#317

Post by letitbeirie »

pydry wrote: post #237
zackify wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was able to negotiate a 45k pay raise at my current company. After clearly proving my value for about 2 years. I made it obvious that I would accept a role at my friends company if they couldn’t come up. I explained to them nicely that I would rather stay, but I can’t without a large raise. It can be done, but it would have never happened without me pushing them. No company is going to willingly throw out raises th…

I've seen some friends some do this. The time it took to go through, the size of the raise and the headache involved in convincing everybody (like pulling teeth), still, IME, essentially made it a losing proposition for them compared to just hopping jobs. Still others have thrown out raises without being pushed but they were critical organizational lynchpins getting 10% raises when the market would bump them 50% mini…

> IME, essentially made it a losing proposition for them compared to just hopping jobs.

I think it's weird how hard it is to convince your colleagues and your management that you're worth 50% more than you were yesterday by continuing to work, yet how easy it is to convince the same people of the same thing by quitting.

I also think most companies realize how disadvantaged they are in salary negotiations in this job market, but it's favored employers for so long that very few of them have any idea what to do about it.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#318

Post by hnfong »

skrebbel wrote: post #10
foolfoolz wrote: post #7

> Our analysis found that the leading elements contributing to toxic cultures include failure to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion; workers feeling disrespected; and unethical behavior I don’t really believe these reasons or at least they don’t match what i’ve seen. I can only speak for FAANG: I think this is more compensation based than anything else. In an effort to level the playing field FAANGS establish l…

I'll never understand the American thirst for money for the sake of it. If HN comments are to be believed, top performer at your average FAANG easily earn $500k per year. At that point, aren't you well past the point where more money brings more happiness, even in high cost-of-living places? What's the point? Why not find a job that's fun and fulfilling?

In most cases companies can't magically make the work that need done more interesting, so the only thing they can do "easily" is to pay their employees more.

That strategy might work for some employees and not others.

And TBH, while work in FAANGs may not on average be more interesting than the most interesting startups out there, the kind of jobs vary wildly with smaller companies. It might be something that changes the world, or you may end up writing a CRUD app.

So the compensation level is actually a kind of bad-but-still-useful proxy for the quality of the work expected, at least it sets the lower limit. And of course, FAANG products do make significant impact (although not always positive). As long as you're OK with being a cog in a LARGE wheel. Not necessarily for everyone, but some people are fine and find fulfillment in that.

But why not just quit working for a salary altogether and pursue your "dreams"? I guess it turns out many people are not very imaginative with what they want to do with their lives and don't mind clutching onto their job even if money is not a big factor.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#320

Post by jasonladuke0311 »

2-718-281-828 wrote: post #76
Areading314 wrote: post #34

A huge problem with this industry is the inflexibility to pay current engineers LARGELY increasing comp each year. The thought is that there is a market rate for an engineer and that pay can increase with the market rate, but this is a fallacy. An engineer that has been at a largish company for 1 year is worth 20-30% more than the year they were hired because they have specific knowledge of the tech stack. Yet that e…

so, my pay should increase within 10 years of being employed more than six-fold (1.2^10). makes sense!

In six years I’ve gone from around $30K to $200K. And I’m not special. I don’t have a college degree either.
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