Toxic culture is driving the great resignation • Hacker News Board

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#161

Post by synergy20 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:12 PM UTC

quietbritishjim wrote: post #56

Areading314 wrote: post #34

A huge problem with this industry is the inflexibility to pay current engineers LARGELY increasing comp each year. The thought is that there is a market rate for an engineer and that pay can increase with the market rate, but this is a fallacy. An engineer that has been at a largish company for 1 year is worth 20-30% more than the year they were hired because they have specific knowledge of the tech stack. Yet that e…

> An engineer that has been at a largish company for 1 year is worth 20-30% more than the year they were hired because they have specific knowledge of the tech stack. Yet that engineer will likely be offered a 3-5% raise. Although I agree with your overall point, I disagree with this line of reasoning. I think the pay offered to an engineer already takes into account that they will understand the tech stack after six…

That sounds about right to me. The company also has risks in that its interviewing process indeed just found a good match and you will be as good in real as in paper(your resume), I think the salary part covers the first year, no raise for first year makes perfect sense unless you're absolutely undervalued when you're hired.

The other side is that, if you're not as good as you're supposed to be, normally you won't get fired just in one year, you are actually overpaid. From the corporate side, the better engineers are covering the loss(those are overvalued but still too early to be laid-off).

So the best and most capable ones will switch jobs after 3 years, not totally because the company is too greedy. Unless there is a way and culture to make your salary can go up and down each year based on your performance, there is no good solution(because pay-cut is not common no matter what). In the end those who are overpaid will more likely to stay, those who are undervalued will likely jump board.

One way is to keep salary less important, like an average value that is reasonable for both sides, then the company can use monthly/quarterly/yearly bonus to reward the top employees, but who could like it when he has a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage that needs a sense of secure/stable income.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#162

Post by twic » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #35

What was the old saying? People don't flee jobs, they flee bad managers? You can run a fast-food franchise, a pub, a hotel or any other front-line enterprise with skill and enjoy extremely loyal employees (at the cost of your profit), or you can run it like a hell on earth by extracting all profit you reasonably can. For a long time, the latter was the standard model across the hospitality sector, especially as union…

> What was the old saying? People don't flee jobs, they flee bad managers?

This is a saying, but as far as i know it is completely made-up. I have seen no empirical data supporting it. On the contrary, here is some empirical-ish data contradicting it:

https://www.cultureamp.com/blog/biggest-lie-people-quit-boss...

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#163

Post by odonnellryan » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

yunohn wrote: post #71

toyg wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no company could pay 5 million dollar or so for an average 20 years of experience. Uh, they seem to find that money just fine for execs, who are not even the ones keeping servers up, so to speak...

This is a really important point that is always missing in these threads - execs at most companies (even at FAANG, but esp outside) make massive multiples of their average engineer.

I've said this before on HN: for a while I thought that execs were overpaid (generally, it is true!) until I worked with some founders and owners of companies who really did bring 10x or 100x the value I did to the company.

It doesn't mean they did 10x the work, but they definitely brought the value.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#164

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

sbarre wrote: post #131

zackify wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was able to negotiate a 45k pay raise at my current company. After clearly proving my value for about 2 years. I made it obvious that I would accept a role at my friends company if they couldn’t come up. I explained to them nicely that I would rather stay, but I can’t without a large raise. It can be done, but it would have never happened without me pushing them. No company is going to willingly throw out raises th…

In effect, you threatened them into giving you a raise. And I'll say congrats on getting it, but are you at all concerned about your ongoing relationship with management? Do they think "he's good for a few years at least now" in terms of comp adjustment, and/or do you expect a raise again next year? At my company, I understand (but have not seen first hand) that anyone who tries this (either comes to the table with a…

[deleted]

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#165

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #157

skrebbel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll never understand the American thirst for money for the sake of it. If HN comments are to be believed, top performer at your average FAANG easily earn $500k per year. At that point, aren't you well past the point where more money brings more happiness, even in high cost-of-living places? What's the point? Why not find a job that's fun and fulfilling?

It's a myth that Americans are greedier than other people. Few people want money for its own sake. Some people are competitive, they want to earn money for status reasons. Or they just want to advance their career and money is a follow-on from that. Other people want money so they can buy expensive things or live in a nice house. Others just want to support their family.

[deleted]

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#166

Post by vwcx » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

tclancy wrote: post #140

koonsolo wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the both of you, so here is my simple version: Companies rely on the fact that you stay a couple of years at least. So if you want to make good deal, you need to switch jobs more often.

A year to learn, a year to earn, a year to yearn.

*A year to learn, a yearn to earn, next year churn.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#167

Post by jen20 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

emmo wrote: post #68

TomVDB wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding a job that’s fun and fulling and finding one that is very well paid doesn’t have to be a contradiction. But there are multiple reasons why money is a bigger focus: - less long term job security. And that lower paid fulfilling job might very well be less secure too. I want to secure my financials as quickly as possible. - insane cost of housing. A family sized 1800 sqft house with a garden now routinely sells…

Move to a different neighbourhood.

I hear this a lot - it’s a non starter. There are only a few places that are walkable in the US, and they are all expensive.

The suburban hellscape where you can walk to a church more easily than a bar is simply not a substitute, even if housing were free of charge.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#168

Post by notreallyserio » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

sbarre wrote: post #131

zackify wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was able to negotiate a 45k pay raise at my current company. After clearly proving my value for about 2 years. I made it obvious that I would accept a role at my friends company if they couldn’t come up. I explained to them nicely that I would rather stay, but I can’t without a large raise. It can be done, but it would have never happened without me pushing them. No company is going to willingly throw out raises th…

In effect, you threatened them into giving you a raise. And I'll say congrats on getting it, but are you at all concerned about your ongoing relationship with management? Do they think "he's good for a few years at least now" in terms of comp adjustment, and/or do you expect a raise again next year? At my company, I understand (but have not seen first hand) that anyone who tries this (either comes to the table with a…

Do you think your company would have the same reaction if engineers ask for a substantial (5-figures) bump in stock year over year?

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#169

Post by kkjjkgjjgg » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #83

foolfoolz wrote: post #7

> Our analysis found that the leading elements contributing to toxic cultures include failure to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion; workers feeling disrespected; and unethical behavior I don’t really believe these reasons or at least they don’t match what i’ve seen. I can only speak for FAANG: I think this is more compensation based than anything else. In an effort to level the playing field FAANGS establish l…

When you think of "toxic work culture", is "failure to promote diversity" the first thing that comes to mind? Are people really quitting SpaceX and Netflix in droves because they're not sufficiently supporting minority / LGBTQ rights? If anything, doing some "window dressing" for "diversity" is probably a lot easier than actually changing toxic patterns of behavior of the existing set of employees. (And of course act…

Actually aggressively promoting "diversity" (like forcing people into diversity trainings) would count as toxic workplace culture to me.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#170

Post by odonnellryan » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #102

rkangel wrote: post #87

This article does accidentally capture one of the major corporate problems pretty well. The conclude from their data that Toxic Workplace Culture is the biggest cause of resignation, and then they immediately suggest 4 short term things to try that don't relate to culture at all . If you have a toxic workplace culture, the very first thing you should do is to start fixing your culture. This is very hard and not fast…

A fish rots from the head down. The people in charge with the most power to solve workplace toxicity are in all likelihood the cause. If that is the case then the best advice is for people to resign and go elsewhere, just as people are doing according to the article.

People are also human, and as employees we tend to expect management to be perfect.