Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

sloanreview.mit.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

301–310 of 385 posts

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#301

Post by oblio »

Retric wrote: post #291
UncleMeat wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't just require changing roles. People making 140,000,000 annually are basically only the founders of the very largest tech companies. CEOs of the very largest tech companies will get stock grants in the nine figures on occasion, but not annually. No staff engineer who changed jobs every three years for three decades is making nine figures. So yes, if you start as a junior engineer and end your career as a CE…

I agree, anyone who thinks 9 figures is likely would have to be smoking something. But, failing to reach the absolute top number possible is hardly failure. Last year over 4,000 Americans made 10+ million in direct W-2 compensation Aka not stock options or capital gains etc.

4 000 out out 330 000 000. So 4 out of 330 000. That's a bit more than 1.2 every 100 000.

Good luck with those odds!

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#302

Post by simplestats »

varelse wrote: post #294
simplestats wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "at will" the right term here? What's the alternative, granting you tenure at their little company or something? If you are an at-will employee who is kept around, then might that demonstrate actual loyalty (and probably higher pay) versus being at a place that is prohibited by law from laying you off without good cause? Perhaps you mean if they treat employees like a commodity. They can do that withoug laying peo…

If I have to sign an agreement that gives my employer permission to terminate me at any time for any reason with or without cause, they should not be surprised that it also grants me the right to quit at any time for any reason with or without cause. And yet, all that fuss about these job hoppers. How about creating an environment and culture where sticking around beats job hopping instead? As for the alternative? Ch…

Well in the past employees got ISO's. Now employees are getting RSU's.

And in our lawsuit-happy culture (with a perverse incentive for companies to always settle lawsuits even when they can win), even the most employee-friendly place probably needs such an agreement for CYA reasons.

I do agree ecompanies can do a much better job of treating employees like partners instead of "resources" to optimize. Even on HN, we have fellow engineers talking of the importance of (soul-crushing) processes that ensure no one is essential. As if it's undesirable to let anyone be special or important...

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#303

Post by didnksfn »

Areading314 wrote: post #34

A huge problem with this industry is the inflexibility to pay current engineers LARGELY increasing comp each year. The thought is that there is a market rate for an engineer and that pay can increase with the market rate, but this is a fallacy. An engineer that has been at a largish company for 1 year is worth 20-30% more than the year they were hired because they have specific knowledge of the tech stack. Yet that e…

"Largely" does not mean what you seem to think it means.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#304

Post by webmaven »

koonsolo wrote: post #188
vwcx wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*A year to learn, a yearn to earn, next year churn.

I remember reading somewhere (but I can't remember where): "My job is not my job, my job is to find a better job"

I've come across "My job is to eliminate my job."

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#305

Post by marcosdumay »

specialp wrote: post #269
sys_64738 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as you're willing to walk if this fails. Also, be aware that your card will be marked and considered somebody who will try this again in the future. I'd expect most companies would reduce the risk of such by making sure what you do has overlap with others. Come the time I expect you'll be managed or re-org'd out the door.

That depends on the situation. Yes, if it was something like "Hey, I know you have this huge project deadline that I am a critical part of, and if you don't pay me a grossly large amount more, I am out" That is hostage taking, and they would not look fondly on you. But the request of asking for a rate that you are being offered on the open market is not. They have 2 choices there: They can pay you more because you ar…

Corporations are completely tone deaf. The way you say things and the details of your situations will not be perceived by the relevant decision managers.

In a small company, it can make a difference. In a large one, it won't.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#306

Post by sheepybloke »

deepsquirrelnet wrote: post #266

Another swing and miss. I don't think this is so hard. The pandemic is waking people to the reality of their own mortality. Suppose you're working a job in a big, highly dysfunctional organization. Most of us who have been there know that these jobs often pay well -- but in trade, you're selling your precious hours to execute a random series of essentially meaningless events (and under pressure to get it done). Now a…

I think that's why we've been seeing the most churn in retail and enterprise software. In my view, those two areas accentuate that feeling of meaningless event ands realizing that you want to do something more fulfilling. I know that's why I left my job and moved to a startup whose work is more fulfilling to me.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#307

Post by oblio »

thematrixturtle wrote: post #85
echelon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as the Devil's advocate, organizations want headcount to be fungible. If hiring and churn were huge issues for most companies, they would actively combat it. Instead, they've all mostly settled into the practice you see. Engineers typically do a 1-2 year tour of duty, vest, then bounce onto greener pastures. Steady state flux. In some senses, new talent also bring in new ideas and combat skeptical dispositio…

Speaking as someone hiring engineers in APAC, it's extremely difficult to find developers who are competent, experienced and have sufficient command of English to operate in an English-speaking team. The few that tick all three boxes and have in-demand tech skills (ML, k8s, AWS etc) can command Silicon Valley level salaries even in their home countries. Of course the pool will expand over time and the situation will…

Word gets out, though. Once people figure out that lack of language skills is the blocker, well, we already know that they're reasonably smart people, they'll learn English.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#308

Post by Retric »

oblio wrote: post #301
Retric wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, anyone who thinks 9 figures is likely would have to be smoking something. But, failing to reach the absolute top number possible is hardly failure. Last year over 4,000 Americans made 10+ million in direct W-2 compensation Aka not stock options or capital gains etc.

4 000 out out 330 000 000. So 4 out of 330 000. That's a bit more than 1.2 every 100 000. Good luck with those odds!

Lifetime odds don’t work like that.

That’s just last showing years W-2. Someone that made that much but retired in 2019 doesn’t count. It also excludes anyone that will cross the threshold at some point in the future. It even excludes people that got stock options worth that much but can avoid calling them taxable income right now.

Lifetime odds for a random American might be ~1:10,000. But not everyone tries to make that much money from a W-2 either. Becoming a school teacher is hardly putting your hat in the ring for that kind of compensation. Which arguably drops lifetime odds closer to 1 in 1,000 if not better for people that make a real attempt. I am trying to avoid any kind of truss Scotsman argument, but IMO there is a meaningful difference between random chance and stuff people work for.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#309

Post by some-guy »

pjc50 wrote: post #44
beloch wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data presented in the article actually presents some pretty specific problems with management that don't boil down to managers needing to be "better people". For example, employees want predictable schedules. The sectors with highest turnover mostly seem to be the kind that either embrace crunch culture or have seasonal demand. e.g. Retail workers are expected to put in more time during the holidays, when most wo…

Unpredictable schedules is nothing to do with holiday work; that can be planned and agreed in advance, with suitable pay, and people will happily do it. What really grinds people's gears is "on demand / zero hours" scheduling: you have to ring up an hour before your shift starts to check whether it's actually going to start or been moved again. With predictable scheduling you can work two part-time jobs. With zero-ho…

The hardest job I've ever had wasn't any of my software engineering jobs which paid six-figures: it was working at a retirement home as a dishwasher and food server. It paid $8.50 an hour (in 2007), and I didn't know my hours until the day before. It was hell, and I lasted two months before burning out.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#310

Post by sheepybloke »

kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #174

One thing I don't get: don't people need money? Is there a huge wave of poverty and homelessness rolling in after the Great Resignation? I get IT workers may have earned so much that they will be OK for a while, but the article specifically mentions other jobs like food workers.

One thing that isn't being discussed is that people are leaving for hopefully better jobs, especially since there are a lot of jobs hiring. For example, leaving a food job for a better paying factory or technician job. Not a huge jump like in the tech world, but sometimes you just need a push to move to something new.
Post reply on HN