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Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

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Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#151

Post by [deleted] »

nwatson wrote: post #126
sudosysgen wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think the West would have Lula over Bolsonaro? I come from a country ruled by a literal monarchy. That country is on very good terms with many western countries, such as the US. For the countries we aren't on good terms with, it's a question of geopolitics and trade. A few years back there was a wave of revolutions in the area, that were touted as liberal (a lot of them really weren't). Oddly enough, t…

The Economist (conservative British newspaper) was Lula's bitch while he was president, Lula was branded a leftist who brought capitalist prosperity, peace, and stability to Brazil. The Economist will forgive him his corruption in some Bagehot retrospective covering similar situations from the early 20th Century elsewhere and voilá, Lula will be anointed once more. He'll headline whatever is the new post-COVID BRIC.

[deleted]

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#152

Post by usrusr »

anonporridge wrote: post #66
smoe wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know much about Rio, but what I have seen and heard elsewhere in Latin America over the years. Often times organized crimes substitutes an absent government and enforce their own set of law and order in the community. They can't afford to just rob the people blind as sometimes portrayed in media. They rely on a somewhat sybmiotic relationship with the "citizens" to act as messengers, human surveillance cameras,…

The interesting thing is that this is literally how all governments originally emerged. The strongest local gang establishes a monopoly on violence in their territory. They then extract tribute (taxes) from the local population in various ways. If they get too greedy and extract too much, then eventually the plebs have little enough to lose to break their established order and fight the establishment gang. The most c…

"They then extract tribute (taxes) from the local population in various ways."

And in modern observations, if they emerged out of drug dealing, there's even the possibility (though that's certainly not a given) that they never diversify into tribute/protection, while still providing order.

It would be the exact same thing as the "we done do drugs!" ethics portrayed in The Goodfather, only reversed. I wouldn't even consider that all too unlikely, because violent gangsters want to consider themselves as the good guys just like everyone else, and adhering to a code that rules out some forms of unethical behavior goes a long way for that.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#153

Post by kvgr »

TameAntelope wrote: post #6

How the hell do they run these operations or have this amount of gear safely in a favela? When I did a full-on tourist experience of Rio, the guides were adamant that we not even go near any favela, as we'd immediately be robbed or worse. My understanding was that the crime in those areas was so astronomically high that nothing even resembling IT infrastructure could exist, as it would immediately be confiscated by t…

I was on tour with a local guide, in 3 favelas and I felt safe. There is a lot of favelas, some are better and some are worse. Some are basically "safe" when you live there, normal shops, schools and so on. Petty crime is often worse in the good streets below, because thugs and kids go to steel from tourists. I would not go the by my self at night. But there are big differences between favelas.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#154

Post by kvgr »

smoe wrote: post #26
TameAntelope wrote: post #6

How the hell do they run these operations or have this amount of gear safely in a favela? When I did a full-on tourist experience of Rio, the guides were adamant that we not even go near any favela, as we'd immediately be robbed or worse. My understanding was that the crime in those areas was so astronomically high that nothing even resembling IT infrastructure could exist, as it would immediately be confiscated by t…

Don't know much about Rio, but what I have seen and heard elsewhere in Latin America over the years. Often times organized crimes substitutes an absent government and enforce their own set of law and order in the community. They can't afford to just rob the people blind as sometimes portrayed in media. They rely on a somewhat sybmiotic relationship with the "citizens" to act as messengers, human surveillance cameras,…

The also do not want to get rich people mugged in favelas, because they go there to buy drugs. Bad for business.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#155

Post by usrusr »

vanusa wrote: post #82
anonporridge wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our history books tend to glorify ancient gangs and call them things like "nobles" and "royalty". But if you look beneath the veneer, they were gangs very much like the street gangs and crime organizations we have now. History is written by the victors.

Actually it's written by anthropologists. If you look at how our species came to self-organize, there has always been a strong component of innate, voluntary cooperation (and of course violent subjugation as well). It's a mixed bag for sure, but I just think your characterization is way too oversimplified -- and it probably wouldn't get too far you tried to pass it by people who have devoted their lives to studying t…

...and before those proto-gangs, you had extend families acting as a power structure. (and many places still have them, competing against gangs/state/corporations, with a noticeable organisation efficiency cost from murky loyalties)

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#156

Post by cloudfifty »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #143
nopenopenopeno wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an insane perspective. The favelas are a site of extreme exploitation, no matter how you try to rationalize it. This article is obviously propaganda meant to counter the headlines about the Worker’s Party leading in the polls. The working people of Brazil have suffered tremendously under Bolsanaro’s neoliberal government and Lula (Worker’s Party candidate who Bolsanaro imprisoned for 2 years on bogus charges)…

There is absolutely no evidence for any of this global "neoliberal" conspiracy theory. The Western states have been embracing social democracy, predicated on forced income redistribution - the very opposite of "neoliberalism" - at an unprecedented rate: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-long... These ideological narratives that claim that political parties which advocate for more government powe…

> The Western states have been embracing social democracy

No, they haven't. Stop peddling this obvious bullshit based on a single figure stretched all the way to the moon. Social spending != social democracy. Social spending != welfare state.

As I've asked for previously, and what you always - unsurprisingly - fail to provide: please present a single reputable, non-free-market think-tank, source that agrees that the "Western states" have been embracing social democracy the last few decades.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#157

Post by usrusr »

speeder wrote: post #32
TameAntelope wrote: post #6

How the hell do they run these operations or have this amount of gear safely in a favela? When I did a full-on tourist experience of Rio, the guides were adamant that we not even go near any favela, as we'd immediately be robbed or worse. My understanding was that the crime in those areas was so astronomically high that nothing even resembling IT infrastructure could exist, as it would immediately be confiscated by t…

I am from Brazil and to be honest the government push for this is kinda silly. There are other problems to solve first. There was an event I participated about this, I was teaching about gamedev using opensource tools, a lot of people paid to go, the government then brought in a ton of people from the favelas as part of their "digital inclusion" program, although I was happy to teach them, later I heard many of them…

From my comfy first world perspective (far from Silicon Valley level, but still..) I consider gaming an addiction not without its own perils. But if it substitutes widespread substance addiction, even if only in part, it is a big step forward. Gaming can be a powerful push towards increased digital literacy, particularly for gamers with low buying power. There's a much wider and more healthy path from purely consumptive gaming to being productive in the field of the digital than from purely consumptive substance abuse to being productive in the field of chemistry or whatever (even if the very well-told fiction of Breaking Bad might suggest otherwise). It's certainly no substitute for infrastructure, order and education, but that doesn't necessarily imply that investment in one cannot be more worthwhile than investment in the other. Don't skip on the hanging fruits in one field because you haven't solved all hard problems in the other.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#158

Post by EL_Loco »

This is, sorry, the same BS that I hear over and over, and over and over. This is alright, it's pretty good that it's happening, but that's the extent of it. Just good, just alright. The need for decent public education at the elementary level is still needed, and is what is really needed. Nothing else will do. Some people, very few, will rise out of poverty by becoming famouse or... never mind, I won't bother. I'm actually tired of these stories highlighting the success of a few people where millions live without good decent basic education and good decent basic healthcare. At this rate Brazil will take a century to get rid of its ghastly inequality levels. People in favelas have had cable tv, internet access, cell phones, etc, for decades now. They still live in gang controlled, gang-war torn places where people, often times kids, getting shot with AK-47 or M4 (gang vs police weaponry) stray bullets is normal. Really, normal. Yeah, some guy having access to the latest Occulus is really changing this reality. Sorry for the rant... but for the past 20 years I haven't been convinced that there's another solution other than having good and decent basic public education for everyone. Really sorry, but as a brazilian, it hurts sometimes.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#159

Post by holografix »

I grew up in Rio de Janeiro right next to a few favelas. I also served time in the Brazilian army (mandatory drafting) for 12 months and was not only surrounded by guys from all types of favelas but was stationed on the border of the Maré Complex.[0]

Trust me. I know a thing or two about favelas.

I could write a book about it but I’ll stick to the topics on the OP’s article and some recurrent topics in the comments, some very unfounded.

The answer to how people below the poverty line can afford technology is simple: donations and debt.

It’s _very_ common in Brazil to accrue debt by buying things “parcelado” or in instalments on your credit card. Next to one one pays the full amount upfront for a meaningful purchase. Wanna buy a smartphone for $USD200? Pay 10x $USD23 over 10 months.

Why are these expensive gadgets not stolen? Of course they are. However not as commonly as one might guess, it’s virtually impossible to commit a crime unseen in a favela. There’s very little to no privacy at all. A mixture of citizen justice (wife beaters for example are routinely bashed by crowds of people) and drug dealers’ willingness to assert authority keeps most stupid thefts in check.

Favela residents will go to surprising lengths to acquire “escape”. In the 1990s it was the parabolic antenna and a tv. With the intro of cheap android devices and 3G it became social media and YouTube. As the price for VR drops it’ll be that.

Much before Facebook there was a social media app that exploded in Brazil, it was called Orkut, it was a reflection of the need for escape.

Also, with the advent of more and more cheap laptops, the promise of easy NFT/Crypto money and a magical job as a coder it’s becoming more and more common to see laptop ownership.

I see what Mr Chantilly is trying to do and it’s easy to dismiss it as a single fart in the galaxy but he helps keep some kids off the streets, gives them a bit of hope. Hopefully they learn more than League of Legends and come out of it speaking a little English and more comfortable using a pc.

What’s needed in Rio and Brazil is a multi-generational educational investment. It’ll never happen of course. Populist demagogues like Lula da Silva will keep being re-elected to “save the poor”. By rubber stamping high school certificates for people that can’t read why buying their votes with free food. Every 8 years or so they’ll rob so much they’ll get thrown out, a moron from the right will be elected, and the left will come back in again to reinstate the good times. Meanwhile a huge brain drain perpetuates.

Now on another note. If you’re a tourist in Rio STAY THE FUCK AWAY from any favelas. If you _must_ engage in poverty zoo/safari make sure you go with a trusted, long time in the market, tour guide and don’t forget at any time that you’re putting your life at risk. At any moment, there could be a police operation or a rival drug dealing gang using weapons of war in your immediate vicinity.

No I’m not exaggerating. I was shot at by AR15 and M16 rifles and returned fire with my shitty Belgium made FAL during an attempted “hit and run” on the barracks I was stationed at where a couple of maniacs on crack will jump the walls and try to get out with ammunition and rifles.

These days a lot of the hardcore drug gangs (or factions as they are often called in Rio) have been displaced by what most people would think of more classic mafia. Protection money, extra “taxes”, money loans, etc. These organisations are mostly comprised of corrupt ex and current policemen and low rank army personnel and therefore much more capable and educated than 90% of the dealers they displaced.

If you want to watch three great but extremely violent movies that explain this shift in power, watch these 3 in this order.

“City of God” - basically how violent drug dealing started in Rio back in the 70s. [1]

“Elite Squad” - the state of the war of drugs in Rio during the 90s. [2]

“Elite Squad 2 - Enemy within” - how it is was in the late 00s [3]

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maré,_Rio_de_Janeiro

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_God_(2002_film)

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Squad

[3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Squad:_The_Enemy_Withi...

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#160

Post by space_fountain »

ipaddr wrote: post #18
space_fountain wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But also on some level why in the world are they more deserving of the job then the potentially better qualified foreigner just because where they happened to be born.

The question is why is it better for the country not who is more deserving. This is an export of US dollars. Is it better to keep the position local so member of society can be taxed/buy from other local businesses or export so foreign worker can buy tools from US firms or US business can get job done for cheaper.

Well I think that is actually quite a different question. Luckily it's not at all clear that the sort of zero sum thinking that lead to mercantilism was ever true or will ever be true. Having the best people doing the jobs where they have a comparative advantage helps everyone. Ideally we would open our immigration system more, certainly to highly skilled labor, but until then.
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