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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#711

Post by zeroonetwothree »

burntoutfire wrote: post #677
kristopolous wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> google, gmail, chrome, iphones There's four excellent examples of things that were better 10 years ago before this practice was instituted. The youngest thing on that list (chrome) is 14 years old. Both Apple and Google used to not hire in this 3-4 interviews of canned programming question way. Then they did. Those products are now stagnating and deteriorating so much that it's obvious to everyone. If you think it'…

> There's four excellent examples of things that were better 10 years ago before this practice was instituted. FWIW, I interviewed with Google in 2009 and the interview was 100% pure leetcode (not even design/architecture questions). It was exactly a series of four back-to-back 1-on-1 meetings, which consisted of "Hello" followed by an algorithmic puzzle. If anything they seem to have broadened the scope of interview…

I’m interviewed in 2006-2009 at all the top tech companies and can confirm the process was essentially the same as today.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#712

Post by afarrell »

tablespoon wrote: post #685
elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

> These things might be reasonable in a startup with a dozen people, but we have over a hundred thousand. My opinion is that once an organization is a certain size, everything really needs to be written down and easily accessible. I shouldn't have to regularly ask people how to do basic things, it should be on a wiki. If it's complicated, it should be in a training video, or a user manual. Here's the root cause of yo…

Indeed. It is too easy to read this as a rejection of tools, processes, documentation, and plans. That interpretation makes it harder for at-the-coalface employees to get help from leaders when they...

- actually need tools and processes designed to set the conditions for healthy interactions among individuals.

- actually need to spend time improving the documentation to enable them to produce working software.

- actually need to have a meeting-of-the-minds so they can collaborate with customers.

- actually need to spend some time planning so they can respond effectively to change.

Part of the problem here is that good technical leadership is waaaaaay more difficult than can be reflected in a 4-point manifesto. Whole books[1] are written about it. Part of the problem is information flow. It takes courage to speak clearly enough to tell leadership that they're so focused on being agile that it is harming social trust in their organization and preventing their teams from acting with agility.

[1] recommendations: The Toyota Way, Leadership is Language, Ego is the Enemy.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#713

Post by mcv »

frockington1 wrote: post #659
mcv wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's possible, but if Amsterdam has big name tech companies, Booking and Adyen are definitely it, so perhaps it makes sense that they pay more. Sadly I'm not that interested in working for them; Booking uses way too many dark patterns for my taste, and I've been to Adyen's office, and they had dozens of programmers working in a single noisy room. That didn't appeal to me at all.

What are the big name tech companies in Amsterdam (sorry, dumb american here)

Well, Booking and Adyen mostly. I'm sure there are more, but these two are probably among the most famous.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#714

Post by jensensbutton »

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

It's a problem of the incentives we've setup. We reward engineers for building things. Promotions, pay raises, etc. for engineers are typically based on impact and technical complexity, not how good their documentation was. I've been at a few places that handwave at such things in their level expectations or skills matrix or whatever, but having been in promo discussions at a variety of medium and large companies it always comes down to what was shipped.

Problem is, at mature companies there aren't enough greenfield problems to match the large number of engineers who are looking to climb the ladder. So stuff is rewritten, then rewritten again since nobody understands the rewrite, and so on. Managers kind of look the other way because retention and the ecosystem becomes messier and messier over time as promoted folks leave and new folks come in that need to be promoted.

This is the world of professional software development at pretty much every company not a startup.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#715

Post by ubermonkey »

I think this is focussing on the wrong things.

All jobs can be scored on three metrics:

1. The nature of the work;

2. The compensation;

3. The people you work with.

The article is really just zeroing in on points under #1, but #2 and #3 matter to most people, too. You can do cool work at home alone for free, but that wouldn't be a very good JOB.

In my 30 year career, I've had some jobs that scored poorly across the board (but hey, paid the rent). I've only had 2 jobs where all THREE were at least B+.

My job right now -- 14+ years! -- scores B+ on the work, but A and A+ on the other two points. Which helps explain the 14 years.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#716

Post by [deleted] »

vkk8 wrote: post #499
didip wrote: post #87

The article is concise but missing a lot of real-life examples: * The highest paying software companies employ LeetCode style interview. That is off-putting to a lot of people even though the money would be super sweet to have. * Some wannabe startups also employ LeetCode style interview even though they don't pay anywhere near FAANG/Unicorns. * You know what's worst than LeetCode style interview? LeetCode style inte…

Related to the last point: There is no way to estimate how much work a new job is in reality. I'm currently working 10-20 hours a week remotely. I think my salary could be improved, but taking a risk of actually having to put in 40 hours or more of work every week is not worth the small(ish) increase I could reasonably get by changing jobs.

[deleted]

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#717

Post by ca01an »

menaerus wrote: post #517
gdcbe wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno where you live but in Belgium: - That salary certainly does seem realistic, even though I'm on the higher end and have a base salary above that; - I also get the same amount of paid holidays, might be even a couple more; - we have great hospitality insurance, mutuality (general health care) has to be paid by ourselves however, even though that's cheap; - they do help me save for pension in the form of a contrib…

You haven't. That's the sad reality for devs living in the EU (or elsewhere but not in the States). 200k is also a bit generous, senior engineers that are specialized in tech do earn much much more than that, anywhere from 2x to 5x. Yes, 5x that amount for an engineer. I didn't believe this myself but that's really how it is. However, given that more and more companies are becoming more open to WFH setting, it will h…

What tech do you have to specialize in to get $1 million a year?

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#719

Post by arthur6667 »

ubermonkey wrote: post #715

I think this is focussing on the wrong things. All jobs can be scored on three metrics: 1. The nature of the work; 2. The compensation; 3. The people you work with. The article is really just zeroing in on points under #1, but #2 and #3 matter to most people, too. You can do cool work at home alone for free, but that wouldn't be a very good JOB. In my 30 year career, I've had some jobs that scored poorly across the b…

The article is litteraly split in three sections adressing those concerns.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#720

Post by jdavis703 »

devwastaken wrote: post #259

The cause is companies refuse to fund education and refuse to take on graduates. The system is meant to be that new engineers learn from experienced engineers. This doesn't work when all the company wants is experienced engineers. It naturally leads to applicants abusing the hiring process. This is the plain fact that those well off with their jobs just don't understand. Education is far too expensive, causing anyone…

I call BS on this, at least in America. I went to community college and a middling state university. Pell Grants combined with various STEM and achievement-based scholarships covered my tuition and then some. When I graduated I applied for two jobs and had three offers (my current employer at the time also wanted to keep me).
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