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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

cushychicken.github.io

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#651

Post by lbriner »

This article might be describing the US but I think in Europe, unless you are willing to have overseas remote working (which brings its own challenges), then there is a genuine shortage of ability. Youngsters aren't choosing engineering because other things seem more fun.

Even hiring people from within Europe is hard, many companies are hiring from the Far East or India still because there is too much work. I think we have a decent company with some great positives but we might struggle to even get 5 applications and that is via a recruiter.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#652

Post by loup-vaillant »

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

Sounds like a lack of repeatability to me: complex tools, combined with lack of documentation, makes for a fairly unstable work environment.

It's for similar reason that I like to keep unreliable dependencies to a very strict minimum. I can rely on my compiler, my editor, my OS, and to a lesser extent a bunch of extremely popular libraries. But as soon as we get to internal tools & processes or obscure third party libraries, certainty goes downhill very quickly.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#653

Post by herbstein »

pattusk wrote: post #40
hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that…

> $50 to $60k salaries are the norm

As a newly graduated CS student in Denmark I got a job earning $74k a year. I got warned by my union that my salary was on the low side and, come the first negotiation round of the year, I should ask for a larger raise than simply a yearly adjustment. And based on my union's numbers I don't think almost any developer is working for $60k or under in this country.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#654

Post by throwaway1293 »

pferde wrote: post #598
throwaway1293 wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that I'm not saying we shouldn't do as best as we can with documentation, clean code, etc, BUT: In the open source world, I've developed a large low quality codebase that is very complex from when I was less experienced. This project has gotten plenty of contributions over the years, some from less experienced and some from more experienced. The experienced developers know how to get around the codebase, but the…

It could be that the more experienced developers are just burnt out in trying to give that kind of feedback, and instead just grit their teeth and get through the code base as they need. Meanwhile the newer, less experienced developers probably still have a bit of... let's say naive optimism, and try to give feedback more.

That could be the case for a job you get paid to do, but for open source there are people coming in to help because they like the solution and have ideas for new features or refactoring.

The inexperienced developers in my case have not contributed much, but rather complained in other channels. (it's game related, the community is on discord, in game, etc)

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#656

Post by saiya-jin »

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

Sounds like every multinational org with 100k+ emplyees, certainly this fits my own. Fun part is, there is no realistic way out of this. It only takes one obscure critical legacy app to add so much integration mess into whole ecosystem that nobody ever will be re-doing those.

Plus business won't put in the budget necessary for practically no change from their point of view.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#657

Post by frockington1 »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #473
eyjafjallajokul wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... If you are in your 20's, it is totally worth moving to the US where you can get paid 500K+ per year if you navigate your career efficiently. I posit that making this much money more than covers any of these additional expenses that you call out.

Is it really? I mean, you more than likely aren't going to get paid 500k+ per year, even if you "navigate your career" efficiently. And in so many cases, you might be losing out. Did you want vacation time or do you simply want to work while you are young? Do you want to have children in your 20's? If so, maybe not move to the US. Your child probably will have citizenship of your home country - but maybe not, especia…

Most vacation packages for software devs are unlimited or in the 3-4 week range. Plenty of time for a long vacation in the Spring and a shorter one in the fall. It's one of the only things that keeps me going through it all

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#658

Post by vianneychevalie »

jlkuester7 wrote: post #628
elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

> My opinion is that once an organization is a certain size, everything really needs to be written down and easily accessible. I shouldn't have to regularly ask people how to do basic things, it should be on a wiki. If it's complicated, it should be in a training video, or a user manual. This %100. Automate all the things, but for any part of the process that cannot be automated/scripted, write it down. And don't jus…

We call it Data governance and Enterprise architecture, those are fields and we're hiring like crazy

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#659

Post by frockington1 »

mcv wrote: post #640
weatherlite wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty idk. Could be that high earners really like reporting about their salaries? I mean it must feel much better to go into a salaries website and tell everyone you're making 200K than it is 70K, so it could be biased upwards. Truth is these Dutch companies don't have to pay that much - so many people from all over the world want to work there 80-100K is more than plenty. Maybe super high management will get 200K.

That's possible, but if Amsterdam has big name tech companies, Booking and Adyen are definitely it, so perhaps it makes sense that they pay more. Sadly I'm not that interested in working for them; Booking uses way too many dark patterns for my taste, and I've been to Adyen's office, and they had dozens of programmers working in a single noisy room. That didn't appeal to me at all.

What are the big name tech companies in Amsterdam (sorry, dumb american here)

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#660

Post by Anderkent »

gdcbe wrote: post #477
danbmil99 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not rainbows -- FAANG are out-bidding startups at every level. If you have a modicum of talent and a flair for interviews, they will gladly buy your soul for $250k/year + bennies from heaven.

I see, so while not rainbows it does come with the fact that you're expected to be a slave on location for 24/7? So if I understand it correctly it is only rainbows if you wish to combine that with a family life and without having to move to us?

> while not rainbows it does come with the fact that you're expected to be a slave on location for 24/7?

Not at all. You're expected to be productive to a certain standard (and even that is sometimes iffy), not to be 24/7 available.

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