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Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

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Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#111

Post by marcyb5st »

throwaway013389 wrote: post #98
skrebbel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll never understand the American thirst for money for the sake of it. If HN comments are to be believed, top performer at your average FAANG easily earn $500k per year. At that point, aren't you well past the point where more money brings more happiness, even in high cost-of-living places? What's the point? Why not find a job that's fun and fulfilling?

While working for a FAANG in Europe me and a lot of colleagues have been offered to relocate to the US. With a big salary increase as you can imagine. Believe me or not, very few people accepted. Surprisingly for me.

I'm a Googler working in Switzerland and have been offered the same package and I refused the offer almost on the spot. There are 3 reasons for me:

1) Salary change not worth it. Switzerland already pays a lot and for me it's the sweet spot for quality of living / disposable income. Considered the cost of living in SV I would be saving more or less the same amount of money regardless of the bump in compensation.

2) US working mentality is not healthy IMHO. Luckily I was able to experience the workaholic culture that my peers in the US show. Answering mail or reviewing code over weekends, late at night for their timezone, ... . If I am expected to do that to meet expectations thanks but not thanks. I value my work life balance too much. This compounds the 10/15 paid holidays days year vs 25 I currently enjoy.

3) I don't like commuting for that long. The 101 in SV is a nightmare and, honestly, I am not sure how people do that to themselves like spending 1+ hours each way every day. In Zürich it takes me 12 minutes door to door using public transportation.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#112

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

notyourday wrote: post #100
Areading314 wrote: post #34

A huge problem with this industry is the inflexibility to pay current engineers LARGELY increasing comp each year. The thought is that there is a market rate for an engineer and that pay can increase with the market rate, but this is a fallacy. An engineer that has been at a largish company for 1 year is worth 20-30% more than the year they were hired because they have specific knowledge of the tech stack. Yet that e…

> A huge problem with this industry is the inflexibility to pay current engineers LARGELY increasing comp each year This is not an inflexibility. This is the "leadership" deciding that it is not worth it.

As it turns out, companies aren't all malevolent, omnipotent entities with infinite resources who withhold rewards from employees purely for schadenfreude.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#113

Post by marcyb5st »

caskstrength wrote: post #99
skrebbel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll never understand the American thirst for money for the sake of it. If HN comments are to be believed, top performer at your average FAANG easily earn $500k per year. At that point, aren't you well past the point where more money brings more happiness, even in high cost-of-living places? What's the point? Why not find a job that's fun and fulfilling?

> At that point, aren't you well past the point where more money brings more happiness, even in high cost-of-living places? What's the point? Why not find a job that's fun and fulfilling? From what I understand most top US software engineers intend to retire earlier using that money. Question to you and other similarly-minded Europeans here: Do you intend to churn web services until you are 67 years old (dutch state…

No I don't plan to do that. I am investing the money I am making in Switzerland in holiday apartments in cheaper but more touristy European countries (so far only in Italy). The goal is that in 10/15 years (I am 33) I am done paying the mortgages and I can retire for good or at least work without really needing the salary.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#114

Post by quickthrower2 »

goodpoint wrote: post #92
echelon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as the Devil's advocate, organizations want headcount to be fungible. If hiring and churn were huge issues for most companies, they would actively combat it. Instead, they've all mostly settled into the practice you see. Engineers typically do a 1-2 year tour of duty, vest, then bounce onto greener pastures. Steady state flux. In some senses, new talent also bring in new ideas and combat skeptical dispositio…

> new talent also bring in new ideas and combat skeptical dispositions and organizational ossification Ossification happens when most of the employees stay in the same company and even the same team for 20 or 30 years. The industry is facing the opposite problem, where the average tour of duty is so short that people don't care about planning for the future or designing lasting, low-maintenance software. Endless, unn…

I find its the people most invested - the business owners who don’t care about future planning or low maintenance software. Or more accurately they don’t understand it, they do the equivalent of the false economy of buying cheap and paying twice. Normally excused by “well we are growing fast”

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#115

Post by quickthrower2 »

FpUser wrote: post #47
echelon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as the Devil's advocate, organizations want headcount to be fungible. If hiring and churn were huge issues for most companies, they would actively combat it. Instead, they've all mostly settled into the practice you see. Engineers typically do a 1-2 year tour of duty, vest, then bounce onto greener pastures. Steady state flux. In some senses, new talent also bring in new ideas and combat skeptical dispositio…

>"Covid and WFH opened up a world of possibility for talent sourcing and cost reduction" I was doing remote work and hiring remote subcontractors for 20 years already. No need for COVID ;)

You are ahead of the general “herd” then. Which for 20 years had been either “in the office no remote” or “what if we outsource it all to India that will cut those annoying costs”

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#116

Post by zackify »

Areading314 wrote: post #34

A huge problem with this industry is the inflexibility to pay current engineers LARGELY increasing comp each year. The thought is that there is a market rate for an engineer and that pay can increase with the market rate, but this is a fallacy. An engineer that has been at a largish company for 1 year is worth 20-30% more than the year they were hired because they have specific knowledge of the tech stack. Yet that e…

I was able to negotiate a 45k pay raise at my current company.

After clearly proving my value for about 2 years. I made it obvious that I would accept a role at my friends company if they couldn’t come up. I explained to them nicely that I would rather stay, but I can’t without a large raise.

It can be done, but it would have never happened without me pushing them. No company is going to willingly throw out raises this large to people without reason.

I agree with your point fully, it’s just unfortunate it doesn’t happen.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#118

Post by Nihilartikel »

skrebbel wrote: post #10
foolfoolz wrote: post #7

> Our analysis found that the leading elements contributing to toxic cultures include failure to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion; workers feeling disrespected; and unethical behavior I don’t really believe these reasons or at least they don’t match what i’ve seen. I can only speak for FAANG: I think this is more compensation based than anything else. In an effort to level the playing field FAANGS establish l…

I'll never understand the American thirst for money for the sake of it. If HN comments are to be believed, top performer at your average FAANG easily earn $500k per year. At that point, aren't you well past the point where more money brings more happiness, even in high cost-of-living places? What's the point? Why not find a job that's fun and fulfilling?

I think that the American thirst for money is perhaps sometimes greed, but most often it's a gnawing psychological side effect of our relative lack of personal security in our society. A person can have $100k in the bank and still be bankrupted and left literally living on the streets if they have the audacity to get cancer, lose their job, and have unlucky circumstances.

(edit) This insecurity is a 'feature', not a bug, in our social fabric though - it keeps workers compliant and 'grateful' to have income even when work conditions are otherwise unacceptable. It's why some fight so hard to prevent any expansion of a social safety net.

Personally, I only started feeling safe when my savings edged up towards 1M.. but I may also be more anxious than most.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#119

Post by asd4232 »

gwd wrote: post #83
foolfoolz wrote: post #7

> Our analysis found that the leading elements contributing to toxic cultures include failure to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion; workers feeling disrespected; and unethical behavior I don’t really believe these reasons or at least they don’t match what i’ve seen. I can only speak for FAANG: I think this is more compensation based than anything else. In an effort to level the playing field FAANGS establish l…

When you think of "toxic work culture", is "failure to promote diversity" the first thing that comes to mind? Are people really quitting SpaceX and Netflix in droves because they're not sufficiently supporting minority / LGBTQ rights? If anything, doing some "window dressing" for "diversity" is probably a lot easier than actually changing toxic patterns of behavior of the existing set of employees. (And of course act…

Yeah, toxic workplaces are usually toxic to also people other than those belonging to particular minorities.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#120

Post by skrebbel »

Nihilartikel wrote: post #118
skrebbel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll never understand the American thirst for money for the sake of it. If HN comments are to be believed, top performer at your average FAANG easily earn $500k per year. At that point, aren't you well past the point where more money brings more happiness, even in high cost-of-living places? What's the point? Why not find a job that's fun and fulfilling?

I think that the American thirst for money is perhaps sometimes greed, but most often it's a gnawing psychological side effect of our relative lack of personal security in our society. A person can have $100k in the bank and still be bankrupted and left literally living on the streets if they have the audacity to get cancer, lose their job, and have unlucky circumstances. (edit) This insecurity is a 'feature', not a…

Nice! IMO this makes a lot of sense.

(I mean it feels super foreign to me but it's a much better explanation than "greed" or "yeah but the house prices")

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