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Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

sloanreview.mit.edu

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Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#71

Post by yunohn »

toyg wrote: post #60
YetAnotherNick wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

25% raise over 20 years means 86 times increase in salary over a fresher. And no company could pay 5 million dollar or so for an average 20 years of experience. The entire industry hinges on the fact that a person would only change job 5-6 times in 20 years.

> no company could pay 5 million dollar or so for an average 20 years of experience. Uh, they seem to find that money just fine for execs, who are not even the ones keeping servers up, so to speak...

This is a really important point that is always missing in these threads - execs at most companies (even at FAANG, but esp outside) make massive multiples of their average engineer.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#72

Post by djohnston »

> Our analysis found that the leading elements contributing to toxic cultures include failure to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion; workers feeling disrespected; and unethical behavior.

Not that I don't believe this but I reallllly want to see the data and how they classify a company as promoting D&I Vs not.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#73

Post by throw_m239339 »

trabant00 wrote: post #53

> failure to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion I have a very hard time believing this is the major driving factir in the "great resignation". Or maybe my Europe environment is completely different. But to me this sounds like another attempt to push certain political views and not at all to really discover what is going on.

This "article" uses every possible 'intersectional' buzzword available. "toxic", "diversity", "equity", "inclusion". It's easy for me to dismiss its arguments, solely based on its lexicon...

> But to me this sounds like another attempt to push certain political views and not at all to really discover what is going on.

Of course that's what it is.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#74

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #55
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>* employers are able to give 20-30% raise each year(which is pretty hard)* Can’t be that hard if an engineer can just walk out and get that. What do you think the replacement will cost? And with none of the knowledge.

25% raise over 20 years means 86 times increase in salary over a fresher. And no company could pay 5 million dollar or so for an average 20 years of experience. The entire industry hinges on the fact that a person would only change job 5-6 times in 20 years.

Ok. I was a bit hyperbolic. But people aren’t even moving because their current jobs value them for what they are worth.

People literally jump around chasing pay increases. If you got a decent raise comparable to a job change would you jump around every couple years?

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#75

Post by throwaway6734 »

freedom2099 wrote: post #25
skrebbel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll never understand the American thirst for money for the sake of it. If HN comments are to be believed, top performer at your average FAANG easily earn $500k per year. At that point, aren't you well past the point where more money brings more happiness, even in high cost-of-living places? What's the point? Why not find a job that's fun and fulfilling?

I am with you on this one! I really don’t get it… I love in France (French riviera) and my salary despite being very good for the region is very far from the hundreds of thousands of FAANG companies in the US… and yet I more than once turned down offers from FAANGs because no amount of money can bet all the other benefits I get… 35h work week (no extra Hours), very relaxed corporate environment, 35 days of vacation a…

You're living the dream my friend!

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#76

Post by 2-718-281-828 »

Areading314 wrote: post #34

A huge problem with this industry is the inflexibility to pay current engineers LARGELY increasing comp each year. The thought is that there is a market rate for an engineer and that pay can increase with the market rate, but this is a fallacy. An engineer that has been at a largish company for 1 year is worth 20-30% more than the year they were hired because they have specific knowledge of the tech stack. Yet that e…

so, my pay should increase within 10 years of being employed more than six-fold (1.2^10). makes sense!

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#77

Post by freedom2099 »

Hokusai wrote: post #39
freedom2099 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am with you on this one! I really don’t get it… I love in France (French riviera) and my salary despite being very good for the region is very far from the hundreds of thousands of FAANG companies in the US… and yet I more than once turned down offers from FAANGs because no amount of money can bet all the other benefits I get… 35h work week (no extra Hours), very relaxed corporate environment, 35 days of vacation a…

> I love in France Freudian slip.

Probably XD

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#78

Post by mschuster91 »

ragnot wrote: post #61
mschuster91 wrote: post #35

What was the old saying? People don't flee jobs, they flee bad managers? You can run a fast-food franchise, a pub, a hotel or any other front-line enterprise with skill and enjoy extremely loyal employees (at the cost of your profit), or you can run it like a hell on earth by extracting all profit you reasonably can. For a long time, the latter was the standard model across the hospitality sector, especially as union…

A bad thing that I've realized about the latter scenario is that it is a vicious cycle. Here's what I mean: 1) You are a loyal employee who works hard and puts in the hours. You promise yourself that you will treat your reports well when you finally get a position of power. 2) You get screwed over by some higher up. You are devastated and everything you worked for is taken away. You vow never to let this happen to yo…

At that point, it might make sense for a coordinated effort at least between the Western countries to drastically limit if not outright ban bonus payments and other incentive-based forms of compensation, including stock options above a to-be-discussed limit.

We have had three to five decades of de-regulation (depending on the country) and if there is one consistency that shows up everywhere is that as soon as you tie personal bonus payments of managers to their ability to mis-treat staff, they will fuck over their staff (and often enough, their company long-term) for their own short-term gains. Everyone suffers in the end, except "activist investors" pushing for short-term garbage optimizations before unloading the toxic company on clueless bag-holders.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#79

Post by Fiahil »

yunohn wrote: post #71
toyg wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no company could pay 5 million dollar or so for an average 20 years of experience. Uh, they seem to find that money just fine for execs, who are not even the ones keeping servers up, so to speak...

This is a really important point that is always missing in these threads - execs at most companies (even at FAANG, but esp outside) make massive multiples of their average engineer.

5.000.000 for a single exec means 50.000 for each of the 100 "average engineers" working in their department. You can overcompensate execs because there fewer of them than engineers.

Re: Toxic culture is driving the great resignation

#80

Post by ENGNR »

echelon wrote: post #40
Areading314 wrote: post #34

A huge problem with this industry is the inflexibility to pay current engineers LARGELY increasing comp each year. The thought is that there is a market rate for an engineer and that pay can increase with the market rate, but this is a fallacy. An engineer that has been at a largish company for 1 year is worth 20-30% more than the year they were hired because they have specific knowledge of the tech stack. Yet that e…

Speaking as the Devil's advocate, organizations want headcount to be fungible. If hiring and churn were huge issues for most companies, they would actively combat it. Instead, they've all mostly settled into the practice you see. Engineers typically do a 1-2 year tour of duty, vest, then bounce onto greener pastures. Steady state flux. In some senses, new talent also bring in new ideas and combat skeptical dispositio…

The counterpoint is - it’s very easy to waste a lot of money building very subtly the wrong thing! In theory it shouldn’t matter, if your processes and specifications are perfect. But in practice the closer your engineers deeply understand the problem space of your customers the better
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