Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage • Hacker News Board

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#301

Post by JohnL4 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 10:45 PM UTC

JohnL4 wrote: post #53

tikkabhuna wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally out of my depth here, but does cooling the gas down have the added benefit that it'll be heated by the earth whilst stored?

I'm guessing not. Earth's heat is way lower down. Think of a cave: always cold. I think what's going on is they're taking the heat out and storing it more efficiently than just dumping it down the ground, where (1) it would leak away, representing energy loss, and (2) as it leaks away, the air would lose pressure. (It would leak away b/c it's harder to insulate an entire mine, basically.) So, they pull it out ahead o…

"Looked the temp gradients up, after 50ft, temp of the earth is 50F, and raises one degree F every 60ft." (So, at 300 feet, 54 degrees; at 500, 57.5 degrees.)

(http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/forum/read.php?14,46717,4671...)

"...but other parts of the mine was very cold you made sure you had plenty to ware it depended where you worked"

(https://www.quora.com/Are-coal-mines-cold/answer/Keith-Scott...)

"Underground mines maintain a constant temperature, around 55 degrees Fahrenheit."

(https://www.quora.com/Are-coal-mines-cold/answer/Tom-Inghram)

«The temperature on average is in the 50s, but you still sweat an enormous amount when you start laboring.“ - Alan Bates, working in the coal mines of Letcher County, Kentucky.»

(https://www.quora.com/Whats-it-like-working-in-a-coal-mine/a...)

Yes, a 4000m gold mine is hot. I doubt that's where they're storing their compressed air.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#302

Post by JohnL4 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 11:03 PM UTC

JohnL4 wrote: post #301

JohnL4 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing not. Earth's heat is way lower down. Think of a cave: always cold. I think what's going on is they're taking the heat out and storing it more efficiently than just dumping it down the ground, where (1) it would leak away, representing energy loss, and (2) as it leaks away, the air would lose pressure. (It would leak away b/c it's harder to insulate an entire mine, basically.) So, they pull it out ahead o…

"Looked the temp gradients up, after 50ft, temp of the earth is 50F, and raises one degree F every 60ft." (So, at 300 feet, 54 degrees; at 500, 57.5 degrees.) ( http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/forum/read.php?14,46717,4671... ) "...but other parts of the mine was very cold you made sure you had plenty to ware it depended where you worked" ( https://www.quora.com/Are-coal-mines-cold/answer/Keith-Scott... ) "Underground…

And finally: https://startcaving.com/info/caves-are-cold-find-out-how-col...

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#303

Post by trompetenaccoun » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 11:23 PM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #250

trompetenaccoun wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds trivial enough, now someone just has to built it all. Jokes aside though everything has pros and cons. For storing large amounts of energy from the grid, are you sure lithium batteries make sense? Take a look at this, it's not a scientific article but it gives you a basic overview of the problems we'd face when storing energy in lithium batteries at scale: https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/storage/lithium-o…

That article is from 2014. Since then we have deployed dozens of GWh of grid storage. There have been a few small fires, but otherwise it's worked out really well. Lithium ion on the grid is nearly doubling every year, and in places like Texas. I'm having trouble finding a recent article, but this one from 2020 has 3x as many battery GW thank gas GW in the interconnection queue: https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2020/09/08…

Just because something gets does doesn't mean it's sensible. That's like arguing coal is the future because China and India have brought online thousands of TWh since 2014. You did not actually address any of the points mentioned in the article explaining why Li-ion is not the go to solution for grid scale storage. Flow batteries have only become relatively cheaper since then btw.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#304

Post by ed_balls » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 11:46 PM UTC

deeviant wrote: post #293

ed_balls wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar idea for repurposing an old mining operation. You take a closed gold, uranium or copper mine which is 1000-2000 meters deep. You create a nuclear rector at the bottom with "fire and forget" design. Only robots can do the maintenance. After 60 years you disable it, pour concrete into the shaft and move to the next location. If it melts, who cares? It's not gonna poison water supply. Why was this not bu…

The footprint of a nuclear power plant is pretty huge. That machinery is generally not optional even if doing a "fire and forget" design. Underground space would come at a premium cost, likely far more than could be saved on reactor design. Also nuclear power plants obviously generate an absolutely massive amount of heat that needs to be dissipated, a task that would be difficult and expensive underground.

sure, but it doesn't have to be U-235 (thorium maybe?). It's more geothermal power plant with fission booster.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#305

Post by throwaway0a5e » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 12:45 AM UTC

WheatM wrote: post #252

grawprog wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most electric hand tools are usually available for cheaper in a corded variety. The only electric hand tool I haven't seen come corded are impact drivers and most impact drivers I've used will last a day or two using it 8 hours a day even off a 2aH battery. For me, I like air powered tools because of their power and reliability. They'll almost always have more torque and power than similar electric tools.

Air tools defintely don't have more torque than electric tools, they rely on speed to overcome their shortcomings in torque. The main high torque application in air tools is in impact wrenches, which use very fast hammering action. Modern battery impact wrenches can match the performance of the best air wrenches.

A top of the line M18 fuel impact (a $300 tool, before the $100 battery) is only equivalent with its air analog on the 1/365th of the year shop pressure runs at 90 because the OSHA guy is poking around and it's a heck of a lot bulkier.

When you start getting into 3/4 and 1" it's not even a comparison.

The cordless is nice to have but it's a luxury/convenience tool, not a replacement.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#306

Post by Smoosh » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 1:29 AM UTC

samstave wrote: post #116

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #105

In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company

There also used to be "central turbines" whereby there was a central spinning rod that one could attach belts to in order to spin a thing to get work out of it... called line and shaft https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qt5tltnvF8

And a similar system used to be common for shearing: https://www.sheepcentral.com/wool-growers-support-call-to-ph...

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#307

Post by RickJWagner » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 1:40 AM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #194

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #105

In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company

This sort of system is used today in many modern industrial facilities. Case in point: Amazon warehouses. Lots of the mechanical automations inside some of those warehouses are powered by compressed air in open loop systems. As the conveyor pushes the item off, onto a different lane, there's a distinct hiss of air escaping. The movement of the machine was powered by compressed air. Out in the parking lot in these fac…

I saw a similar thing in a very old building, I think from the early 1900s.

The web of tubes was for messaging. (Just like some bank drive-ins work.) Users would put paper messages in capsules which were put into a pipe. Compressed air would carry the message to a central switching station, where human operators would re-route the message to the proper destination tube.

It was pretty cool, in a steam-punk sort of way.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#308

Post by duxup » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:17 AM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #181

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #105

In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company

The University of Iowa campus has a steam system under the campus, installed in the last century. Nowadays the steam is recovered waste from the electric plant. But it's still in use!

University of Minnesota too, not long ago replaced their old boilers and main steam plant.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#309

Post by fastball » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:24 AM UTC

jhallenworld wrote: post #259

mschuster91 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not much, technologically this is a conventional mine project, only that you mine air volume instead of rock and have to take care of the cavern being reasonably airtight afterwards.

Also you could do it underwater if you live near a coast. Basically an upside down cup with a pipe in it, sunk as deep as possible.

The same company has actually done this[1] with the city of Toronto.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GicQwXbNnv0

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#310

Post by nkurz » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:35 AM UTC

fastball wrote: post #309

jhallenworld wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also you could do it underwater if you live near a coast. Basically an upside down cup with a pipe in it, sunk as deep as possible.

The same company has actually done this[1] with the city of Toronto. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GicQwXbNnv0

The video is from 2015, and says it was a 2 year pilot project. Do you know if there are there any updates on how the project went? Is it still operational? Did they build any more?