Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage • Hacker News Board

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#251

Post by cinntaile » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

bumby wrote: post #228

mabbo wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of system is used today in many modern industrial facilities. Case in point: Amazon warehouses. Lots of the mechanical automations inside some of those warehouses are powered by compressed air in open loop systems. As the conveyor pushes the item off, onto a different lane, there's a distinct hiss of air escaping. The movement of the machine was powered by compressed air. Out in the parking lot in these fac…

They aren't really the same types of systems. Pneumatic "muscle pressure" is common in lots of industrial applications, especially those that operate in austere environments. But those are different than the tech being researched in the article in large part because the mechanical compressors in industrial applications are hugely inefficient. Many constant volume compressors have 90%+ of the energy as waste heat. I b…

How does this work? How can you compress air without raising the pressure? Are you sure you don't mean adiabatic?

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#252

Post by WheatM » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #246

mnahkies wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favourite thing about air tools was not having to worry about batteries (most electric hand tools I've used are battery only so no opportunity to use an extension lead like you use an air hose)

Most electric hand tools are usually available for cheaper in a corded variety. The only electric hand tool I haven't seen come corded are impact drivers and most impact drivers I've used will last a day or two using it 8 hours a day even off a 2aH battery. For me, I like air powered tools because of their power and reliability. They'll almost always have more torque and power than similar electric tools.

Air tools defintely don't have more torque than electric tools, they rely on speed to overcome their shortcomings in torque. The main high torque application in air tools is in impact wrenches, which use very fast hammering action. Modern battery impact wrenches can match the performance of the best air wrenches.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#253

Post by bin_bash » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:27 PM UTC

throw8932894 wrote: post #213

mabbo wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of system is used today in many modern industrial facilities. Case in point: Amazon warehouses. Lots of the mechanical automations inside some of those warehouses are powered by compressed air in open loop systems. As the conveyor pushes the item off, onto a different lane, there's a distinct hiss of air escaping. The movement of the machine was powered by compressed air. Out in the parking lot in these fac…

It is pretty common in regular workshops. Compressed air powers drills, riveting machines, sprays guns, jack hammers... Tools powered by compressed air are simpler (no electronics), more durable and cheaper.

You forgot the most important reason they're used: they're far more powerful!

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#254

Post by pinot » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:31 PM UTC

antupis wrote: post #231

freefal wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit tangential, but New York City has an operating steam system that's still widely used by commercial customers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system

District heating is pretty normal at northern Europe altought now we use mostly water.

District heating with water is vastly more safe, I imagine that's why its used.

I remember my apartment in germany had a "Heat" meter on the water line, always wondered how that worked.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#255

Post by WheatM » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:32 PM UTC

Melatonic wrote: post #210

epistasis wrote: post #67

Grid storage is going to be big business in the future, on the order of size of storage for electrical vehicles. (And these will certainly not be mutually exclusive markets! Vehicle to grid tech will become widespread, as is already seen in the new F150 Lightning truck). Lithium ion will dominate for the foreseeable future, as the industry has scaled to massive sizes and already, and has the advantage of being curren…

I have been saying for years that we should have a windmill system you could place on top of a building or home that powers a larger, highspeed flywheel buried underground below the house. Ideally with the flywheel in vacuum and balanced by magnets for reduced friction. This ensures no loss converting energy types (mechanical to mechanical) and it can be used later for electricity or other energy in small, large burs…

No post body was provided.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#256

Post by inglor_cz » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:35 PM UTC

nervousvarun wrote: post #224

inglor_cz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pre-industrial holes may collapse long before you reach -100 meters. Even -5 meters is a challenge in certain places. Also, digging (or rather drilling) in bedrock is hard without motorized equipment and good steel. Also, supplying fresh air down there is a problem. Also, preventing the mine from flooding is usually a huge problem. Mining is hard and a lot of people lost their lives doing that. That said, if your onl…

And of course the difficulty with caves is hibernating predator(s) (bear is the one I can think of maybe more?)

And lions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthera_spelaea

IDK if these lions hibernated, but their bones are definitely found in caves all over Europe. Often with human remains or artifacts nearby.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#257

Post by Someone » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:35 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #116

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #105

In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company

There also used to be "central turbines" whereby there was a central spinning rod that one could attach belts to in order to spin a thing to get work out of it... called line and shaft https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qt5tltnvF8

That was normal in the age of steam. Having lots of tiny steam engines on the factory floor does not make sense. Keeping them running is too labor intensive, they would be fire risks, and they’re less efficient.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#258

Post by lostapathy » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:38 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #133

lostapathy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also adds a ton of pollution from using (often old and poorly maintained) Diesel engines in the name of avoiding the electric grid. Adding to that, compressed air is a much less efficient source of power than using electricity directly.

Yes, but air tools can be really nice to use,esp for grinding, cutting, sanding operations. For one, you can press/dig hard enough to bog or stop the tool and nothing hapoens - you just pick it uo and it speeds back uo again - do that with an electric tool and you'll have a dead motor paperweight real soon. Air tools can also be lighter and no worries abt damaging the cord or carrying the battery. Many good air tools…

I agree - air tools are awesome in some cases, although modern brushless tools are often competitive if not superior to air tools compared to how things were a decade ago.

My complaint, really, is just how selfish it is to go out of your way to use a dirty energy source as a workaround for limits in your personal belief system.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#259

Post by jhallenworld » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:39 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #17

keewee7 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What goes into building and burying large scale underground structures like those air caverns?

Not much, technologically this is a conventional mine project, only that you mine air volume instead of rock and have to take care of the cavern being reasonably airtight afterwards.

Also you could do it underwater if you live near a coast. Basically an upside down cup with a pipe in it, sunk as deep as possible.

Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage

#260

Post by andrewflnr » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

Raidion wrote: post #62

JohnL4 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing not. Earth's heat is way lower down. Think of a cave: always cold. I think what's going on is they're taking the heat out and storing it more efficiently than just dumping it down the ground, where (1) it would leak away, representing energy loss, and (2) as it leaks away, the air would lose pressure. (It would leak away b/c it's harder to insulate an entire mine, basically.) So, they pull it out ahead o…

This isn't correct. Deep mines are notoriously hot, because you're digging towards magma. Google says temps increase by 3° C for every 100m.

Have you been in a cave? They're chilly, usually around 50F, year round. IIRC those "deep mines" are a LOT deeper than any compressed air storage system is likely to be.