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Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#171

Post by slowmotiony »

grover35 wrote: post #45
Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

Quoted post unavailable.

Oh give me a fucking break.

Ever been to China? The country is ruled by Han supremacists and is openly racist to its own citizens who aren't Han. To defend the CCP using the argument of "Deep racism since the West existed" is just absurd party propaganda.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#172

Post by UncleEntity »

bobwaycott wrote: post #127
torstenvl wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem very convinced of your position. But there's a whole world of options in between "unactionable" and "invade China."

Such as? Assuming the best, the parent asked a bunch of questions (in an admittedly dismissive and argumentative way) to try and invite some kind of response that explains what China gets out of it, and what the world does next if we could somehow prove China created the original virus. So … let’s assume China created it. Now what? What’s the next step and response if it was an accident ? What’s the next step and res…

Back in the day, that inconvenient time we used to refer to as “history”, there were people called “robber barons”, massive child labor, unsafe working environments &etc.

If (the collective) we just shrugged it off because we didn’t want to offend anyone do you think things would be any different today?

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#173

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

usefulcat wrote: post #114
bsder wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

Except that it’s not inactionable. If it happened once (accidentally, I’m presuming), it can happen again. It’s not like the Wuhan lab is the only source of such research. So it’s entirely legitimate to question the value of such research, especially if a leak could result in a global pandemic.

That doesn't answer the question about what the West is supposed to do to China should the lab-leak hypothesis be true.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#175

Post by garbagetime »

sudosysgen wrote: post #162
garbagetime wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The source is undeniably Reddit, in a sense (in the sense that it is opposed to a peer-reviewed journal). Regardless, I directly addressed a portion of your comment. I believe the portion was meant to borrow some of the creditability of serious journals and give it to Reddit - which is, perhaps, a bad idea, for the reasons I laid out. To label my comment a non-sequitur is ridiculous.

In no sense is the source Reddit, anymore than the source of a New York Times article is paper, or the source of my word is your screen. Citing sources is meant to borrow the credibility of the source for elements of your argument. Not to attribute that credibility to the sheet of paper your pen is inking.

I suspect you've locked onto the specific denotation of "source" as being an individual article. That is not the only denotation of the word. It can also refer to, as examples, persons or journals.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#176

Post by awb »

suifbwish wrote: post #107
systemvoltage wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article shouldn’t have quote this person in the first place - there are plenty of serious investigations into the lab leak theory from reputable virologists. I recommend Alina Chan’s new book: Viral. This clarification also masquerades as a clarification of something important. This person quoted by the tabloid is irrelevant here. In fact this article does more damage to the credibility of lab theory than otherwi…

Facts are facts. The fact is in 2019 there were 39,397 wet markets in China. How many virology labs were there in China handling Corona-viruses? TWO. One of which was TWO BLOCKS from where the wet market from where the original Covid-19 virus which started the pandemic has been traced to. One might be forgiven for being curious as to the likelihood of the virus emerging from this particular wet market as opposed to a…

> One of which was TWO BLOCKS from where the wet market from where the original Covid-19 virus which started the pandemic has been traced to

TWO BLOCKS? Or a 40min drive? This is why the lab leak theory feels conspiracy-adjacent. Too much exaggeration.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/cpsprodpb/D961/production/...

> The institute is a 40-minute drive from the Huanan wet market where the first cluster of infections emerged in Wuhan.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57268111.amp

There’s plenty of valid scientific inquiry to be had regarding the theory once you get past the misinformation. But the political showmanship and the attraction of conspiracy theorists doesn’t help.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#177

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

bobwaycott wrote: post #127
torstenvl wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem very convinced of your position. But there's a whole world of options in between "unactionable" and "invade China."

Such as? Assuming the best, the parent asked a bunch of questions (in an admittedly dismissive and argumentative way) to try and invite some kind of response that explains what China gets out of it, and what the world does next if we could somehow prove China created the original virus. So … let’s assume China created it. Now what? What’s the next step and response if it was an accident ? What’s the next step and res…

Few people are really answering the question, and I can only assume because everyone knows that the answer is "nothing". Western thought doesn't really work well when it's dealing with a non-Western entity that can defend itself. So while people are up in arms about the lab-leak hypothesis, they can't think past just being upset at China. We can't press China militarily without the Western way of life being threatened, we can't threaten them economically without the Western way of life being threatened and we can't blackmail them because the first two methods are nonstarters.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#178

Post by tripletao »

riyadparvez wrote: post #116
sudosysgen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem at all line they're claiming that lab escapes never happen. Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak. For a leak of such a virus to happen from a BSL4 facility that routinely handles much more contagious viruses, you would need incompetence or funding issues, yes.

> Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak. This is nothing but disinformation. > Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was…

Beyond that, the original SARS escaped at least once from a BSL-4 lab in Taiwan:

> The scientist had been working on a SARS study in Taiwan's only biosafety level 4 lab since June, the Taiwan statement said. [...] A chest x-ray showed pneumonia in his right lung, and polymerase chain reaction tests of throat and blood samples were positive for the SARS virus.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/12/taiwanes...

The idea that "BSL-4" implies "negligible risk of accident" seems to be empirically false. In any case, the WIV was creating chimeras of novel coronaviruses with much looser precautions, at BSL-2:

> The Chinese work was carried out at biosafety level 2 (BSL-2), a much lower tier than Baric’s BSL-3+.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/06/29/1027290/gain-of-...

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#179

Post by riyadparvez »

sudosysgen wrote: post #151
riyadparvez wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak. This is nothing but disinformation. > Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was…

That's interesting, because when you ignore the spin on both texts, you find out there is no contradictory information at all. Yet you could that it's nothing but disinformation. You should also note that the article is in the Opinion section, and doesn't actually publish the cables. The cables the is factually claiming is that US officials learnt that the research going on at the lab indicated that there is a high r…

I don't have the time to go through lawyer-speak arguments. The cables from officials regarding WIV safety have been verified. Just because it's on the opinion page doesn't mean it's false. It has way more credibility than some random virologist's claim about WIV safety on Reddit. Period.

Just few points:

* There's no agreement that this virus hasn't been engineered. Ralph Baric has said that just looking at the DNA it's not possible to distinguish whether a virus has been engineered or not. Alina Chan had raised this point and Vox has even made a correction on their article [1]:

> A previous version of this story stated that SARS-CoV-2 had been definitively proven not to be a bioengineered virus. While an August 2021 US intelligence report concluded, “Most agencies … assess with low confidence that SARS-CoV-2 probably was not genetically engineered,” and many scientists agree with that assessment, it was an overstatement to claim that the theory has been definitively ruled out. The introduction and conclusion of the story have been updated to reflect this lower level of certainty. (h/t to Alina Chan, biologist at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, for her critique and input)

Please don't spread misinformation.

* A bio safety expert has weighed in and also expressed his concern about possible lab leak of SARS-CoV-2 [2].

* Viruses escape labs on regular basis [3]. Someone else on this thread also posted a link of a recent virus escape from a Taiwan lab.

* This is not the first time a lab leak happened and virologists tried to cover up. It happened during Soviet era in the 70s [4]. The truth came out after the fall of Soviet Union.

[1] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22734496/genetic-engineer...

[2] https://twitter.com/jbloom_lab/status/1479170984343064579

[3] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/20/18260669/deadly...

[4] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/20/world/europe/coronavirus-...

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#180

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

DevKoala wrote: post #115
bsder wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

What do you mean it is non-actionable? If it was a lab leak we can determine what conditions lead to the leak and adopt better safety measures. The lab leak was most likely a protocol error and without a collective awareness of the cause, the population cannot push our elected leaders to demand better safety protocols.

Who is "we"? And if it's a weapons lab, what makes you think China is going to allow geopolitical adversaries to poke around to make a more secure and safer environment? This idea works with countries that can't defend themselves against the West such as Iraq, but it's always backed by an invasion. No such option exists in the case of China, so their sovereignty will remain unsullied.
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