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Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#111

Post by thathndude »

awb wrote: post #61
Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

> The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions True, but it’s possible to ask questions that sway public opinion. Look at all the “studies” tobacco companies paid for. Or the racist scientific theories that attempted to justify slavery. If you’re asking questions about a lab leak out of genuine scientific interest, that’s perfectly legitimate. But if you’re as…

Motivation might go to bias. But, ultimately, if the science is good, the motivation should be irrelevant. Science and exploration, regardless of what motivates it has value.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#113

Post by ngc248 »

bsder wrote: post #94
torstenvl wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you find that [a government] has lost, destroyed, or failed to preserve any evidence whose contents or quality are material to the issues in this case, then you may draw an inference unfavorable to the [government]." West Virg. Jury Inst. 5.03

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

The way it is actionable is, that next time when you are. dealing with the CCP, you should not trust their words and proceed with precaution.

Another action the world can take is to hold them responsible for actions. This may be in various ways like non co-operation, economic sanctions etc

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#114

Post by usefulcat »

bsder wrote: post #94
torstenvl wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you find that [a government] has lost, destroyed, or failed to preserve any evidence whose contents or quality are material to the issues in this case, then you may draw an inference unfavorable to the [government]." West Virg. Jury Inst. 5.03

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

Except that it’s not inactionable. If it happened once (accidentally, I’m presuming), it can happen again. It’s not like the Wuhan lab is the only source of such research. So it’s entirely legitimate to question the value of such research, especially if a leak could result in a global pandemic.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#115

Post by DevKoala »

bsder wrote: post #94
torstenvl wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you find that [a government] has lost, destroyed, or failed to preserve any evidence whose contents or quality are material to the issues in this case, then you may draw an inference unfavorable to the [government]." West Virg. Jury Inst. 5.03

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

What do you mean it is non-actionable? If it was a lab leak we can determine what conditions lead to the leak and adopt better safety measures.

The lab leak was most likely a protocol error and without a collective awareness of the cause, the population cannot push our elected leaders to demand better safety protocols.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#116

Post by riyadparvez »

sudosysgen wrote: post #92
perihelions wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That PhD virologist comes off as not credible at all, as part of their response is to deny the entire possibility of lab leaks in general . Their argument is that industrial accidents are simply caused by incompetence or lack of funding, and WIV is well-funded and run by competent people: therefore, bad things simply cannot happen . Their attitude is fundamentally unserious. https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/…

It doesn't seem at all line they're claiming that lab escapes never happen. Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak. For a leak of such a virus to happen from a BSL4 facility that routinely handles much more contagious viruses, you would need incompetence or funding issues, yes.

> Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak.

This is nothing but disinformation.

> Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-dep...

> Instead, there is Chinese evidence that the lab had safety problems. VOA has located state media reports showing that there were security incidents flagged by national inspections as well as reported accidents that occurred when workers were trying to catch bats for study.

[2] https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_chinese-lab-chec...

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#117

Post by disambiguation »

senectus1 wrote: post #84
RikNieu wrote: post #58

> “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. You know what else causes unnecessary harm to science, public trust and health policy? Repeated and condescending lies and gas-lighting from those in charge.

so also does the firehose of conspiracy theory's, misinformation and lunatic fringe that appears to be the overtly noisy minority on all forms of media these days.

Deliberate misinformation directly from your government meant to control the reaction of the masses is orders of magnitude more dangerous than your right-wing uncle meme-ing on Facebook.

Not even close.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#118

Post by wombatpm »

djkivi wrote: post #21

Quoted post unavailable.

The lab leak theory was conflated with 'engineered in a lab' and everyone said no signs of gene editing.

A natural virus sample leaking from a center studying coronavirus was never really addressed. Nor was the concept of Gain of Function studies really addressed. Officially there were no GOF studies underway - but there had been requests for funding of GOF like studies - which were denied.

What concerns me is that researchers tend to piggyback data for new research proposals on existing grants. You all ready have the facilities, lab workers, cells lines, and reagents and other equipment - just run a few experiments to prove out the concept. What is the incremental cost to culture a few more plates of cells, run a few extra sequences?

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#119

Post by neom »

sudosysgen wrote: post #44
johncena33 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK the known animal reservoirs got it from humans. Do you know any animal reservoir that we still don't know how the animals have got it?

We don't, and that's the issue, we can't know unless we find an ancestor virus. It's also very possible if could have wiped out the original virus in all original reservoirs. It's very difficult to do this now and for endemic viruses in general, and it took a very very long time to do for SARS where this wasn't a problem.

I thought they thought it might be pangolins? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32380510/

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#120

Post by garbagetime »

sudosysgen wrote: post #82
xqcgrek2 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snopes and Reddit are not credible.

The source isn't Reddit, it's a published virologist, and he himself cites over a hundred academic sources. Reddit is the medium.

That a person cited sources should not be seen as a sign of the quality of the work. Nor should be the amount of citations the person makes. In some cases the lack of citations can be used to suggest a piece of writing should not be taken seriously. But never the other way around.

It's extremely common for people to reach a conclusion, and only then to go looking for research. And, then, to be looking only for research which backs up their claims. Since there is often extensive research backing up both sides of issues, and also because these people rarely actually examine closely the articles they are citing (upon inspection the articles are often speaking about something different, saying the exact opposite thing, etc.), the citations have nearly zero positive value.

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