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Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#141

Post by duxup »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #121
duxup wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Assuming that is true. Are you asking what China would have done with the result of researching COVID? Same thing anyone does with research? Or are you asking what we do with the information as to why something bad happened? Same things / reasons we want to know why something bad happene…

Also if it did leak from that lab, who funded that work? And how can they be held liable?

Who is they?

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#142

Post by riyadparvez »

sudosysgen wrote: post #130
andreilys wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very confident that SARS-CoV-2 has no connection to the Wuhan Institute of Virology or any other laboratory. Not genetic engineering, not intentional evolution, not an accidental release. The most plausible scenario, by a landslide, is that SARS-CoV-2 jumped from a bat (or other species) into a human, in the wild. A year later and we are yet to see a zoonotic link, but of course it’s the “most plausible scenario…

SARS's zoonotic link was only established in 2017. You can't expect it to be find. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And it's going to be harder for this virus than SARS. Right now, over a year later, reality is conforming exactly to what you would expect to happen starting from that hypothesis a year ago. So I don't even understand why you're mentioning it, it's not a logical argument.

According to this

> Sep 9, 2003 (CIDRAP News) – Chinese scientists found that animals sold at street markets in Guangdong, China, carried a coronavirus nearly identical to the SARS coronavirus, according to a report published recently in Science.

> The animal viruses were found in Himalayan palm civets and raccoon dogs, which were sold for food in the markets, according to the report. The findings indicate a route of transmission between species but do not reveal whether these animals are the virus's natural reservoir or contracted it from another source, according to the report.

Source [1].

The same thing didn't happen for SARS-CoV2. I believe none of the animals in the wet market has been tested positive for SARS-CoV2 or SARS-CoV2-like viruses [2].

[1] https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/09/animals-...

[2] https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/03/26/1021263/bat-covi...

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#143

Post by rrdharan »

tootie wrote: post #77
99_00 wrote: post #74

Trust the science and experts, huh? What a joke. A genocidal totalitarian regime that harvests organs from non-violent political prisoners may be responsible for the worst accident in human history and the people we count on for the unbiased truth are covering it up. I wonder what they'd do for more funding. Being called anti-science is starting to look like a compliment. And their's more: >Chan said there had been t…

Ironic because Chan has been a media crusade about it. Every news org seems willing to give her air time even though she's turned up zilch. Now chiming that the media is suppressing is the cry of someone who has staked their career on an argument they can't win it's merits. If she (or anyone) had some viable proof then it would be guaranteed to be splashed on every front page.

I think you’re mistaking a book tour for a media crusade.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#144

Post by [deleted] »

sudosysgen wrote: post #92
perihelions wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That PhD virologist comes off as not credible at all, as part of their response is to deny the entire possibility of lab leaks in general . Their argument is that industrial accidents are simply caused by incompetence or lack of funding, and WIV is well-funded and run by competent people: therefore, bad things simply cannot happen . Their attitude is fundamentally unserious. https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/…

It doesn't seem at all line they're claiming that lab escapes never happen. Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak. For a leak of such a virus to happen from a BSL4 facility that routinely handles much more contagious viruses, you would need incompetence or funding issues, yes.

[deleted]

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#145

Post by mycall »

bsder wrote: post #83

And we have research now that hypothesizes that Omicron incubated in mice and then jumped back to humans. If that hypothesis is true, then we have a fine example of something running in the background in a reservoir and then Hey, Presto! suddenly appearing to be mutated specifically for humans. If that's true, then all manner of "weird" things suddenly become both plausible and probable without any human intervention…

There is another hypothesis that an immunocompromised patient who took some type of drug that induces DNA mutations in the coronavirus, similar to what Merck and Ridgeback Biotherapeutics offers. If COVID-19 stayed in the patient's body for a long time, it would have time to cause many mutations before transmission.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#146

Post by zeptonix »

usefulcat wrote: post #114
bsder wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

Except that it’s not inactionable. If it happened once (accidentally, I’m presuming), it can happen again. It’s not like the Wuhan lab is the only source of such research. So it’s entirely legitimate to question the value of such research, especially if a leak could result in a global pandemic.

Yeah...

Q: What would happen if we deliberately did everything possible to artificially create the circumstances leading to a pandemic?

A: A pandemic

Any value of such research SHOULD be questioned.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#147

Post by mads »

albinofrenchy wrote: post #47
systemvoltage wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The only way to disprove lab leak theory is for the CCP to disclose the WIV databases and records of what they were studying. Otherwise, just because it was found in some animal doesn’t quite disprove it. WIV was actively collecting virus samples from mammals for research funded by the US tax payer money through Eco Health Alliance.

If you are inclined to think the CCP knows / is covering up a lab leak; you are also inclined to think that they'd release fake disclosure data to cover it up.

Well, who says they haven't tried to do that. The 2013 Mojiang mining incident was claimed to be a fungal infection, while it was later proven it was a viral infection.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#148

Post by analog31 »

karpierz wrote: post #4

Is there a way to disprove the lab leak hypothesis?

To whose satisfaction? Scientifically? It seems possible if the evidence still exists or could be found, based on a few of the other comments here. Politically? The faction that will never be satisfied, parted company with the scientific community, before the pandemic was even on the horizon.

As a scientist, I would have been OK with learning about the hypothesis from a credible source and letting it play out. I would have been OK with letting the public know about it. However, realistically, good faith investigation of the hypothesis would have been utterly drowned out by hysterically amplified versions of the same hypothesis that were already in circulation.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#149

Post by zeptonix »

jraph wrote: post #135
bsder wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

I do think it would be actionable as sibling comments point out, but I would find this knowledge interesting by itself (intellectual curiosity, I think we are at the right place for this). > focus hate That wouldn't be me. I would feel bad for the people who caused the leak (edit to be clear: if this is what happened, not assuming anything here). To be at the origin of such a pandemic spanning multiple years with all…

I think you're likely to be underestimating how psychopathic / purely driven by their research to the exclusion of all other factors these people are likely to be. You're probably assuming they have a normal / social / reasonable level of empathy, which is an assumption you're extending them, not necessarily one they deserve.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#150

Post by theplumber »

dane-pgp wrote: post #69
theplumber wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country's image is more harmed by accusations of having backwards cultural and food habits You forget the politics. CCP can never be wrong or do wrong. That would risk their rule. I'm pretty sure they would rather see the country burning than admitting guilt and incompetence. You can see that kind of selfish behaviour at most of the leaders(I would dare to say even in recent…

> CCP can never be wrong or do wrong. That would risk their rule. But by failing to regulate wet markets properly, aren't they equally at fault? Perhaps the supposed logic is that a scientist at a lab doing this sort of research probably counts as a government employee, whereas someone storing animals unhygienically would more likely be self-employed, so that makes the government less directly responsible. I'm not su…

>> But by failing to regulate wet markets properly, aren't they equally at fault?

Not really. It's just "bad luck" and "nature's fault". I never heard anyone angry on the Chinese government for not adding more red tape /regulation to the wet market. If that would be the case we should have seen people protesting all over the world against public markets where sanitary conditions are not the primary concern of the merchants. I believe it'a well known that more viruses are expected to jump from animals to humans. It's just a matter of time/luck. Simply put, failing to regulate wet markets does not equal to developing and releasing a deadly virus.

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