Live data from Hacker News

Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

moneyland.time.com

151–160 of 172 posts

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#151

I like the spin on this. Sounds like something that could be very useful. I must note, however, some phrases that set off my bullshit detector. >SEA participants were 19 times more likely than eligible non-participants to be self-employed Either I'm missing something or this says that people who are in a self-employed assistance plan are likely to be self-employed. Perhaps this is an editing error? >In Oregon, nearly…

There is a great big giant humongous gap between something that sounds good in an editorial and something that actually does something useful

I am reminded of "politician's logic" from Yes Minister.

1. Something must be done.

2. This is something.

3. Therefore, we must do this.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is just an American thing. And it's a great example of why "if you don't like it, leave it" is bullshit particularly when spoken in the context of American politics.

If you don't like it, leave it and then renounce your citizenship.

Clearly you have not been paying attention.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't throw out the 'love it or leave it' for 99% of posts on almost all issues, but when a person equates taxation with theft, it's just a lost cause. We can and should debate what to do with our tax money, but fundamentally the system always ends up in a state where some people are unhappy with some of the spending. There is no way to reconcile what those on the far right and far left want. We end up somewhere in…

Your "love it or leave it" attitude towards taxation assumes that all individuals should for some reason resign themselves to the sovereignty of the Unites States Federal Government. My chosen geographic location is not an admission of consent to be 'taxed' by men with guns. Edit: Oh cool, looks like I stepped on somebodies toes, they went back and downvoted all my currently votable comments at once. So tell me Mr Re…

No, your choice to participate in society by earning or spending money does however constitute consent to be taxed.

If you do not want to be taxed, don't participate in society.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#154
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then maybe you should have made that clear in your original post, rather than claiming that expatriation was 'free,' as if there were no costs at all . If you read the IRS instructions a little more carefully (or peruse the more detailed treatment at http://www.irs.gov/publications/p519/ch04.html#en_US_publink... ) you'll see that liquidation or exchange of any US assets, including property, were booked as gains prio…

> You have yet to show that the increase in voluntary expatriation is correlated with high earnings, much less caused by them. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1983238,00.htm... While a small number of Americans hand in their passports each year for political reasons, the new surge in permanent expatriations is mainly because of taxes. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/us/26expat.html Amid mounting frust…

I agree about the nested arguments. We're going to disagree about the tax thing; I think your teleological argument takes no account of circumstances, but on the other hand I don't think the media saturation on fiscal questions does much to clarify the issues.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#155
post #90

Whoa, the article is ageist, and proud of it. Though this program is geared toward people of all ages, young people are the best suited to maximize its advantages. Older generations tend to have families and other financial obligations, making it more difficult for them to transition into the roles of entrepreneurs. I am married with a young child, and my salary covers all of my family's expenses, so my husband doesn…

> Young people care a lot more about what others think, the very foundation of "expensive lifestyles". Speaking of ageist ...

Young people tend to be single, which means they have a lot more at stake in terms of public image than married people do.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The employee files for unemployment insurance regardless, lying and claiming they were laid off. You file a dispute, claiming they were terminated for cause. The unemployment office makes it quite clear that you will lose your dispute and should drop it. You refuse, because you have a good clear case where clearly this guy was fired for cause. You present your good clear case, and you lose anyway, and the person fire…

You are wrong. I won every case (~5) filed against me over ~3 years working at Tech Support. If you have proper documentation as to why you fired someone you do not have to pay unemployment insurance.

I'm flat out wrong? I see your anecodote and raise you a statistic: "In 2009, employers filed 405,153 appeals to deny benefits to former workers and 36% won, a figure that hasn't changed too much in recent years, according to the U.S. Department of Labor." Wall Street Journal "Feeling Blue about Pink Slip Taxes" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230396060457515...

36% won. So 2/3rds of the time (read: most of the time), employee wins.

By all means, still appeal. But odds are not fantastic. Plan on having to pay out some unemployment that you shouldn't have to. A written employee handbook and records showing when policies were violated will save you some money sometimes, but don't count on it. You can fire employees, for cause, and still see your insurance go up, even with an appeal.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#157

1. I run a business. Therefore I make jobs. Or don't. 2. If I fire an employee, a portion of the cost of that person's unemployment claims is charged back to me. The employer. It isn't government largesse that funds unemployment claims. It's me. 3. Will this program be yet another potential cost to me? Hard to tell from the PR and press-gab. We'll have to see the law and how it is implemented. Devil in the details, e…

"2. If I fire an employee, a portion of the cost of that person's unemployment claims is charged back to me." Can you elaborate on this? It's something I've long heard and failed to grok. How can an employer, as normal business practice, have to still pay a fired employee any amount?

Any other devs (front end, back end and or mobile) here now on unemployment or are on and off Obama's payroll?

If so why?

1. Lack of experience 2. You did a start-up for long time & having trouble finding regular work (that's me). 3. Something else?

I hate being unemployed and feel working on my start-up for over four years alone in my garage has handicapped me professionally. Since the investment money ran out for my start-up, I have had two front-end dev jobs. Both positions were at local digital web agencies and both lasted under a year. Since getting laid off from the last job Ive had a hell of time getting my next job. I have 22 months of professional experience and 3 years of coding for my start-up.

I wonder if there are similar stories and experiences fellow members here faced? Also, what did you do to land your next coding job or what are you doing now?

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. I won every case (~5) filed against me over ~3 years working at Tech Support. If you have proper documentation as to why you fired someone you do not have to pay unemployment insurance.

I'm flat out wrong? I see your anecodote and raise you a statistic: "In 2009, employers filed 405,153 appeals to deny benefits to former workers and 36% won, a figure that hasn't changed too much in recent years, according to the U.S. Department of Labor." Wall Street Journal "Feeling Blue about Pink Slip Taxes" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230396060457515... 36% won. So 2/3rds of the time (read: most…

Your (ridiculous) assessment doesn't mean that 64% of workers fired for cause end up getting unemployment. Far from it.

Like you said, these are appeals - not initial claims. That means they're cases in which the court has already reviewed the fairly clear-cut criteria for awarding benefits, determined that they are justified, and has proceed accordingly. Indeed, a court that reverses itself 36% of the time seems remarkably open to appeal by employers.

As far as the 64% of appeals that are rejected are concerned, it IS flat out wrong to say that these are all justified dismissals that they employer had to pay for anyway. After all, this figure also includes cases where employees quit for cause (e.g. flagrantly abusive work environments, failure to pay wages in full and on time, efforts to avoid paying unemployment claims by radically demoting or cutting hours instead of laying off, etc.), as well as cases in which the termination was wrongful, and likely to do lasting damage to the employee (e.g. by way of demonstrably slanderous performance reviews, for refusing to engage in abusive or deceptive practices on behalf of the employer, etc.)

You're also disregarding the way incentives function here. Since the employer is on the hook for damages - and the cost of an appeal is trivial - they have a strong incentive to fight, even in cases where they are monstrously in the wrong. Indeed, HR people will tell you that they automatically appealing everything, no matter what, as a matter of standard operating procedure. The idea is that by developing a reputation for reflexive fighting, they can use the notoriously slow pace of justice to delay payments for the better part of a year. Accordingly, people with limited savings who simply want to get the hell out of a truly unbearable situation can't count on unemployment insurance to finance their job search. Instead, they have to line up their next job before they quit their current one, rendering the question of unemployment moot.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#159

I like the spin on this. Sounds like something that could be very useful. I must note, however, some phrases that set off my bullshit detector. >SEA participants were 19 times more likely than eligible non-participants to be self-employed Either I'm missing something or this says that people who are in a self-employed assistance plan are likely to be self-employed. Perhaps this is an editing error? >In Oregon, nearly…

With regards to the "more likely … to be self-employed": I think the problem is that "eligible non-participants" is kind of vague. If we take it to mean "people who tried to start their own business without help from the program," it makes more sense — the people in the program managed to stick with it 19 times more often than people who had to fully bootstrap their business.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to pay for unemployment insurance. The more people who make claims against you, the higher your insurance gets. You probably aren't going to get charged 100% of the employee's unemployment, but you get charged a goodly chunk.

Seriously? I'm surprised anyone is still hiring at all in the US! Sheesh, what a policy. "Hello independent contractors" -- I hear you.

What a policy? What would you do with people who get fired? It's pretty rare to lose your job at one place and pick up a new one the same day. How are they going to finance their life until they find a new job?

In other countries where employee protections are better there is usually an actual written contract in place that says employment must continue up to two months after notice is given from either party.

And yes, that does make contractors more practical but that's good because it pushes contract rates up.

Post reply on HN