Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt • Hacker News Board

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#41

Post by enchiridion » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:34 AM UTC

marcodiego wrote: post #30

Certainly could hurt. Saying anything related to China at that moment could sound like conspiracy theory, xenophobia or racism, certainly bringing in question the reputation and professionalism of these scientists. Now... "Scientists believed..." Considering the realm of professional scientists, beliefs have no value and should be guarded unless sufficient evidence arises. They behaved well by not announcing it. Thei…

It’s anti-scientific to not consider a leak from the lab studying coronavirus in a city where a novel one appears.

Where do you think hypothesis come from? Ingenuity based on educated beliefs is a the very core of science. The above stance sounds a lot like the cult of science which has become so pervasive.

They did not behave well. Many scientists put forward the seafood market and then animal vector believes which have equal or less evidence.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#42

Post by JamisonM » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:35 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #20

perihelions wrote: post #6

> "Professor Andrew Rambaut, from the University of Edinburgh, also said that furin cleavage site “strikes me as unusual”." > "He added: “I think the only people with sufficient information or access to samples to address it would be the teams working in Wuhan.”" This pair of quotes has a completely different meaning from the original quote it sliced up: > "I am also agnostic on this – I do not have any experience of…

The article shouldn’t have quote this person in the first place - there are plenty of serious investigations into the lab leak theory from reputable virologists. I recommend Alina Chan’s new book: Viral. This clarification also masquerades as a clarification of something important. This person quoted by the tabloid is irrelevant here. In fact this article does more damage to the credibility of lab theory than otherwi…

IDK, seemed like it was pretty important to clarify that a quote was used very deceptively!

Seems important to point out that Chan's co-author is a climate-change sceptic that is a hereditary peer in the British House of Lords after chairing the bank Northern Rock - famous for failing spectacularly in 2007. Very credible!

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#43

Post by blockwriter » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:35 AM UTC

Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

This is the behavior of a priesthood.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#44

Post by sudosysgen » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:36 AM UTC

johncena33 wrote: post #32

sudosysgen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many animal hosts or reservoirs. The issue is that it's not obvious wether they got it from or gave it to humans. You really need the most direct ancestor virus.

AFAIK the known animal reservoirs got it from humans. Do you know any animal reservoir that we still don't know how the animals have got it?

We don't, and that's the issue, we can't know unless we find an ancestor virus. It's also very possible if could have wiped out the original virus in all original reservoirs. It's very difficult to do this now and for endemic viruses in general, and it took a very very long time to do for SARS where this wasn't a problem.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#45

Post by grover35 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:37 AM UTC

Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

No post body was provided.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#46

Post by johncena33 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:37 AM UTC

737min wrote: post #11

karpierz wrote: post #4

Is there a way to disprove the lab leak hypothesis?

Yes, clear animal reservoirs, viral lineage, old samples from human or animal infections with precursor variants. No position on the question, just answering your question about proof.

That would only disprove the genetic manipulation part, but not necessarily lab leak. A WIV lab staff can easily contract virus from a bat inside the lab. This essentially what happened in Taiwan, where a lab staff got infected with COVID from a mouse [1]. To disprove lab leak you also have to show either 1. WIV or any other labs in Wuhan didn't have any virus samples that can be an ancestor of SARS-CoV2 2. we can establish a very clear and well understood route how the ancestor of SARS-CoV2 arrived at Wuhan from Yunan province, where the horseshoe bats live, including how it became so good at infecting humans in a very short period of time.

[1] https://fortune.com/2021/12/10/taiwan-investigates-covid-lab...

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#47

Post by albinofrenchy » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:38 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #38

nradov wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a virus essentially identical to the original wild type SARS-CoV-2 is found in a wild animal population that would be fairly strong evidence against the lab leak hypothesis, although not an absolute disproof. Researchers have looked and not found such, so it remains an open question. So far the closest we've come is a bat virus in Laos but it has some significant genetic differences. https://www.nature.com/article…

No. The only way to disprove lab leak theory is for the CCP to disclose the WIV databases and records of what they were studying. Otherwise, just because it was found in some animal doesn’t quite disprove it. WIV was actively collecting virus samples from mammals for research funded by the US tax payer money through Eco Health Alliance.

If you are inclined to think the CCP knows / is covering up a lab leak; you are also inclined to think that they'd release fake disclosure data to cover it up.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#48

Post by grover35 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:39 AM UTC

theplumber wrote: post #25

dane-pgp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> warned it could damage “international harmony”. I've never understood the argument that people would want to suppress the (accidental) lab-leak hypothesis out of a desire to protect the image of China. If the lab-leak hypothesis is incorrect, that doesn't change the fact that the virus originated in that country, it just means that the virus emerged from a wet market. I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country…

>> I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country's image is more harmed by accusations of having backwards cultural and food habits You forget the politics. CCP can never be wrong or do wrong. That would risk their rule. I'm pretty sure they would rather see the country burning than admitting guilt and incompetence. You can see that kind of selfish behaviour at most of the leaders(I would dare to say even in recent…

Yes, any evidence of a lab leak theory could decimate Chinese society and further oppression.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#49

Post by ifkngluvscience » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:41 AM UTC

Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

"Science" is a big-money industry with motivated sponsors, government influence, and strict gatekeeping.

When the quote says "further debate would do unnecessary harm to science," it's talking about this, the big S Science industry.

The scientific method is a way to verify truths by testing hypotheses. The Science industry will kick you out if you uncover inconvenient truths or even test the wrong hypotheses.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#50

Post by perryizgr8 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:41 AM UTC

awb wrote: post #35

Some additional perspectives: Snopes is highly skeptical: https://www.snopes.com/news/2021/07/16/lab-leak-evidence/ An r/science essay from a PhD in virology is highly skeptical: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid19_did... While Root Claim estimates an 83% chance of a lab leak: https://www.rootclaim.com/analysis/What-is-the-source-of-COV...

Snopes and the science page on reddit are not confidence-inspiring sources, to be honest. We need an authoritative investigation (led by WHO/CDC) into the origins of the virus to be able to make knowledgable statements. Until that happens, there is only hearsay and speculation.