Live data from Hacker News

The Righteousness Fix

orionmagazine.org

61–70 of 201 posts

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#61
post #32

I would question the author's casual belief that a so-called "righteous" attitude , where one has decided that they have more wisdom on a particular topic than some other particular group of people, necessarily means they therefore lose all their empathy for that group. This is a huge leap and I personally don't believe there is any such necessity: > Viewing ourselves as “good,” in fact we become grievously toxic, li…

Thats sympathy. Empathy is different from sympathy.

I can be sympathetic without really empathising with someone, and I can have empathy with someone without being sympathetic. Empathy uses more energy.

Ingroups tend to avoid empathy with outgroups because that weakens the separateness between people, and ingroups try to strengthen ingroup sympathy. Pity is a form of sympathy.

Sympathy: "I feel bad for you"

Empathy: "I understand you"

Often an ingroup member will not understand an outgroup member but can sympathize with their troubles or feel pity for them. Sympathy doesn't cost as much as empathy. Empathy challenges one's ingroup cohesion.

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#62
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually both sides of arguments both have truth to them and the way to objective truth exists via trying to understand why both sides believe what they do. Athiesm seems like the objective rational truth. But why do billions of people believe in an invisible man in the sky? What is the objective truth that we can learn from that?

I think that this is fundamentally untrue. Middle between truth and lie is a lie. When you are trying to find truth purely by searching middle of what people say, you are enabling bad actors and punishing honest people.

Nobody is talking about the ‘middle’, or even lies.

Most people are at least partly wrong or mistaken about most things, but there are usually some things they are right about.

There is value to be gained in finding out what another person is right about, even if they are wrong overall or you disagree with them.

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#63
I wonder what the author's thoughts are on "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion" by Jonathan Haidt. It mentions many clear refutes backed up by history to the idea of how bad it is for humans to be "addicted to righteousness".

For example, individuals have not and do not live by themselves in a vacuum as only selfish. We are also very group-ish, and it is the righteousness or norms of those groups that allow for things to get done. People have evolved to agree to social and group norms because those groups always trust each other more, thereby getting more done.

On how efficient secular societies are, Haidt claims: "We don’t really know, because the first atheistic societies have only emerged in Europe in the last few decades. They are the least efficient societies ever known at turning resources (of which they have a lot) into offspring (of which they have few).”

If you support secularization and the ideas of "addictions to righteousness" you have to at the very least be worried about how low birth rates are for people who believe those ideals.

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#64
> AS A SOBER ADDICT...

I wish we would drop this terminology and self-consciousness. While I understand the term is intended as a self-reminder that it's easy to slip back into addictive patterns of behavior, the perpetual self-description of "addict" surely cannot be healthy for the person or society.

The addict-for-life mentality is similar to the seed of cancel culture. Once you do $BAD_THING, you're a ${BAD_THING}er your whole life. There's no forgetting, no ultimate forgiveness, only eternal sorrow and penance.

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#65

So many people are receiving this article very positively but am I the only one here who’s struggling to understand it? Why do the comments here make it seem as if it is impossible to be right but come off as merely being “self-righteous” because one is being engaged by someone else who is wrong and proud? Where do we draw the definition of when someone is being self-righteous? Is it possible to be self-righteous whe…

Of course we believe we are right otherwise we would believe something that we think is wrong. Self righteous people want you to know that they are right and you are wrong.

But I think what the article is really getting at is that we are putting people into groups of good and bad based on what they think. We have started to dehumanize people who don't agree with us.

Is it OK to punch a Nazi?

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#66
post #29

Quoted post unavailable.

> The world didn't used to be like that. I credit Christianity with the invention of proselytizing; religions before it (including Judaism, its immediate parent) were content to stay with a given tribe and not try to spread. While I do agree that this seem to be very correlated with the montoheistic religions (wrote about exactly that here): > Monotheism makes it really hard to consider the arguments of the other sid…

[deleted]

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#67
Social Media rewards polarized, highly motivated points of view. This isn't a "both sides" thing, it's a human nature thing.

These highly polarized posts never change anyone's minds. They only make people more motivated. It can be good to be more motivated, but the cost is driving a wedge between people who are differently motivated.

So how can tech solve this?

I have no idea, but people can help by having conversations with a few points in mind:

1. You can't change their mind. If your goal is to change someone's mind, you've set yourself up for failure. Facts don't change minds, yelling certainly does not.

2. You must listen. Try to hear principles that you share. Ask questions about what motivates them.

3. Speaking from shared principles and sharing personal stories can help build common ground.

The problem? These things DON'T SCALE. I don't think this works except on a 1x1 or small group level.

I really don't know how tech can address this.

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#69
post #41

Quoted post unavailable.

> I think a good first step is to reject Christ's innovation, reject every meme that tries to make you into a spreader I vehemently disagree. I think it's good to "spread" ideas that you think are valuable, but without being a zealot/activist about it. On the contrary if you've stumbled upon some idea, philosophy, etc. that is valuable to you personally, and you decide to secretly keep it only to yourself, that seems…

[deleted]

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#70

So many people are receiving this article very positively but am I the only one here who’s struggling to understand it? Why do the comments here make it seem as if it is impossible to be right but come off as merely being “self-righteous” because one is being engaged by someone else who is wrong and proud? Where do we draw the definition of when someone is being self-righteous? Is it possible to be self-righteous whe…

People get addicted to controversy and seeing someone else who is "wrong and proud". And when this happens, they start to make up their own controversy and become more radical in order to feed their addiction.

You can believe that you're "good" and define certain things as "bad" without being "self-righteous". Heck, you can pretty much be wrong about what's good and bad and still not be self-righteous.

The problem arises when your opinion becomes rigid and you stop accepting any debate, then when you broaden your opinion so that it becomes more radical, because you want to be "right" and see others be "wrong" so bad. And this can turn even the most reasonable opinion into something extreme, e.g. "black people deserve to live" turning into "white people don't deserve to live [because they endanger black people]"

Post reply on HN