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Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power

economist.com

81–90 of 281 posts

Re: Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power

#81
post #4

This is something many people in the EU simply don't get -- I don't get it. Germans have a basically a positive stereotype of being a scientific nation and all around clever lads -- this has enormous soft power and gives leverage to things like "Made in Germany" as a brand. This anti-nuclear stance in Germany is absolutely caustic to that projected image. It's absolutely insane they want to shut down Nuclear and repl…

You have to remember that Germany is no longer a country. It is a state in the European Union and a member of the Eurozone.

The French do nuclear power so the Germans don't have to. Except the French are not doing enough - despite being the biggest exporter of electricity in the region.

Similarly California could be 'nuclear free' and put all the nuclear power stations in Oregon.

Germany is still the second largest net exporter of power - primarily to Poland.

Re: Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power

#82
post #4

This is something many people in the EU simply don't get -- I don't get it. Germans have a basically a positive stereotype of being a scientific nation and all around clever lads -- this has enormous soft power and gives leverage to things like "Made in Germany" as a brand. This anti-nuclear stance in Germany is absolutely caustic to that projected image. It's absolutely insane they want to shut down Nuclear and repl…

As a german, can't agree more. From what I get talking to people is, that they have an irrational fear of a nuclear holocaust and nuclear waste.

Why «irrational»? It just to add color to your message, or you truly believe that radiation contamination is harmless?

Re: Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power

#83
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a german, can't agree more. From what I get talking to people is, that they have an irrational fear of a nuclear holocaust and nuclear waste.

We live at the dawn of cyberterrorism, I'm glad we are stepping out of nuclear now.

It's not impossible to purpose-build hardened, incompatible, read only systems that can submit telemetry to the outside world while only providing actual control on-site (or via restricted channels). Stuxnet wouldn't have happened (or would have been a very rare event) if they built their system this way.

Re: Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power

#84
post #68
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please get your facts right. Coal is rising in Germany. https://www.dw.com/en/coal-and-fossil-fuel-share-of-german-e...

This is a short-term development over a couple of months. You will always have ups and downs of all sources of energy and if you look into a short amount of time you can find any energy source growing or declining to support your argument. But the relevant question is what development is happening in the long run. The third graph here gives you a good idea of the longterm developments of electricity generation in Ger…

What I'm seeing in those graphs is the same. Coal use rising from 2019 to now.

Re: Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power

#85
I see this as a combination of Germans valuing risk aversion more than progress on just about any topic, including reducing carbon emissions combined with an extreme NIMBY / not-invented-here mindset.

The Greens will tell you they can run the country on renewables but will then sacrifice energy independence when the can't make up the difference between supply and demand.

This is why Germany has the most expensive energy costs in Europe. This is why Germany can do exactly nothing to keep Russian interference in-check. And it is also why they continue to prop up coal-produced energy production while still thinking they can lecture other countries on how to achieve sustainable and renewable energy independence.

The stereotype of Germans being driven by science is simply not true (anymore). It has been replaced by complacency and the inability to be optimistic about the future.

Re: Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power

#86
post #39

I can understand the logic that both natural gas and nuclear aren't green. I think its flawed but I understand it. However, if the new German government decides that nuclear is not green, but natural gas is green, then we have to seriously consider that vested natural gas interests are buried deep in German politics and have been for decades. The idea is completely perverse.

there is no such thing as green energy anyway. solar panels need dirty solar cells manufacturing to work. wind power need turbines which means metallurgy which means fossil fuels to make them.

meh. green != free lunch

Re: Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power

#87
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a german, can't agree more. From what I get talking to people is, that they have an irrational fear of a nuclear holocaust and nuclear waste.

We live at the dawn of cyberterrorism, I'm glad we are stepping out of nuclear now.

Not only cyber. A nuclear power plant makes an excellent target for terrorism or war.

Even if the attack is completely unsuccessful it would cause panic.

Furthermore, highly centralized electricity generation makes the distribution network very vulnerable as well.

Re: Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power

#88
post #18
post #4

This is something many people in the EU simply don't get -- I don't get it. Germans have a basically a positive stereotype of being a scientific nation and all around clever lads -- this has enormous soft power and gives leverage to things like "Made in Germany" as a brand. This anti-nuclear stance in Germany is absolutely caustic to that projected image. It's absolutely insane they want to shut down Nuclear and repl…

> It's absolutely insane they want to shut down Nuclear and replace it with fossil fueled plants. That's not what's happening... Nuclear has been mostly replaced with renewables, while fossil fuel generation has been in slow decline as well. You may disagree with that policy, but please get your facts right.

The cost of renewables increase as their fraction of the overall mix increases, i.e. When the fluctuations become harder to be balanced by other sources, and more and more energy storage is needed to handle the fluctuations. Energy storage in that large of a scale is very costly and impractical. In reality what will happen is more and more natural gas usage, which is a bad thing.

Re: Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power

#89
post #4

This is something many people in the EU simply don't get -- I don't get it. Germans have a basically a positive stereotype of being a scientific nation and all around clever lads -- this has enormous soft power and gives leverage to things like "Made in Germany" as a brand. This anti-nuclear stance in Germany is absolutely caustic to that projected image. It's absolutely insane they want to shut down Nuclear and repl…

As a German I (mostly) welcomed the plan to shut down the nuclear power plants (at least the majority of those) that we have. Not because of fear but because the plants that are/were in operation are in terrible shape and predate back to the 60s and 70s mostly, with some exceptions. This is true for almost all of western Europe, too. I'd welcome building new modern ones as a substitution, though. Just look at what As…

> Not because of fear but because the plants that are/were in operation are in terrible shape and predate back to the 60s and 70s mostly, with some exceptions.

Some sources on that:

    For example, the Biblis NPP does not have any spatial separation of the power supply and control cables. A scenario like the one that actually occurred at the U.S. nuclear power plant at Browns Ferry on March 22, 1975, would therefore also be possible at Biblis: When searching for an air leak, the controller used a burning candle. The cables were surrounded by foam, which ignited on the candle flame. This was not detected until the foam was already burning and significant damage had already occurred to the power supply and control cables. As a result, the power failed and almost all of the plant's emergency cooling systems of the reactor were no longer functional. Only one emergency cooling system was still available in Unit 2. Without adequate cooling, a meltdown can occur because radioactive decays in the reactors continue to generate such high heat after shutdown that reactor vessels could not withstand it. In the case of Browns Ferry, a meltdown was prevented because two condensate pumps that were present but actually intended for normal operating for the normal operating system were switched on.
It's translated from a study on nuclear power plant insurances [0]. The section section about the security dangers of nuclear power plants was really interesting to read. The study also talks about things like rocket launchers aimed at nuclear power plants, the damage airplanes can inflict on them, risks of insider attacks, as well as the costs of a nuclear catastrophy. It's a good read if you know German.

[0]: https://www.bee-ev.de/fileadmin/Publikationen/Studien/110511...

Re: Why Germans remain so jittery about nuclear power

#90
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We live at the dawn of cyberterrorism, I'm glad we are stepping out of nuclear now.

Hopefully the few computers needed do not use generalist OSes and aren't connected to the Internet either ?

I assume you never worked in security.
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