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U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

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Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#331

If pigs (or any animal) broaden the compatibility to other organs, what are the ethical implications for raising them with the intention to harvest their organs, if any? On one hand, we already raise pigs to kill and eat routinely, and (mostly) people don't care - is this any different than say, buying a pig heart at the market to eat? On the other hand, it does somehow feel different to me, perhaps because sharing o…

If they were raised for organs rather than meat for consumption, we'd likely treat them better. Not only because of the emotional causes, but because they'd probably be worth a lot of money so the investment would be greater to keeping them alive.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird how this is said without a shred of sympathy or concern for an intelligent, helpless creature. Weirder how it can be said without a sympathetic or concerned response. I hope we can someday move beyond seeing animals as a mere resource.

I assume you're vegan then.

I'm not sure why you think that's relevant. (Note - I am not OP.)

Being hypocritical is an indictment at the speaker, not of the speech. The most hypocritical person to ever live may well be completely right about their most hypocritical belief. It's just not relevant to the the validity of the idea.

So why do people constantly try to use it as a counterargument?

It seems especially prevalent in these sorts of discussions, and for some reason it's often used as you did here. You have no idea if they are vegan or not, but somehow the mere suggestion that a single person might not be is seen as some kind of refutation of the importance of animal rights in general.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John Wycliffe (1340 AD): "How should God approve that you rob Peter and give this robbery to Paul in the name of Christ?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_rob_Peter_to_pay_Paul

Yeah, except we are not talking about two people. We are talking about killing a pig to save a human, potentially thousands of humans.

A thought experiment I always like to posit is: what if we were the animal that needed to be tested on for the benefit of medical research that could safe a lot of the members of an alien species that is much more intelligent than us. Would that by extension also be justified? I eat meat by the way so I'm not trying to supplant my ethical views on you.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come now, do you think the gut flora that naturally interacts with my body, etc. and lives and dies (death being explainable as a consequence of the fall anyways) is on the same order of meaning to me as the changes enacted by God-image bearing man? It's not comparable to me. The change brought about in my faith is a divine change given by the Divine Persons from outside this temporal universe who love me! Yes! A sal…

My advice stands: The key(word )that you're looking for is "delusional". Find its meaning and it will set you free the way the creator intended.

This advice only "stands", for apostasy and betrayal of the people I love in my community, and of the martyrs and saints who underwent beatings and who gave their lives for God being tortured to death in the colosseum. To give up and let their view, consumed with love for God and each other die in me... All because I couldn't endure a little hostility from some unknown people on the internet who thought I was silly for seeing as much meaning in things as I do.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#335
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are pigs used in biomedical testing ever butchered for their meat? Seems like we kill a lot of pigs every year anyways. Would be neat if we could get multiple birds from one stone - for experiments where there isn't a risk of making the meat dangerous at least.

It depends! One of my kids is a biochemist wrapping up his degree this semester in a vet-med lab (send job opportunities!). He's done one study with pigs, where they were developing new enteric vaccines. At the conclusion of the study there's nothing wrong with the pigs --- they're just hyper-vaccinated --- but without a place to send them, all they can do is euthanize. He spent a week or two trying to re-home the pi…

> But the circumstances attending euthanizing research pigs are tricky; the pigs are all in a common area, and they're social animals and know something's up when you put one of them down.

Interesting. I wonder if people have experimented with more humane slaughtering practices like giving the pigs a bunch of booze/opiates so they can have a big pig party, then slaughtering once they've had their fun and passed out. Seems like it could be much more humane. Give em a last hoorah.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#336
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > how we define "abomination" comes down to what we're used to. > If a person believes scripture is only a cultural document and not divine revelation then that would be the definition of abomination. I have to personally disagree with that assessment. That's not what I claimed. But to claim something is "abomination" based on your own personal recoil from it isn't very useful as a moral framework. > and accepting…

>But to claim something is "abomination" based on your own personal recoil from it isn't very useful as a moral framework. I said that something could possibly be an abomination, that being a human being with pig guts installed in place of their human guts. Is that my own personal recoil? I don't know 100% it seems to me that there's room to discuss how a "chimeric" transplant could symbolically be that. My entire pu…

> I don't know 100% it seems to me that there's room to discuss how a "chimeric" transplant could symbolically be that.

Anything that tampers with nature taking its course on its own could be an abomination. Like putting blood from another being into an infant and hooking them up to crazy machines and causing pain to the infant to save their life.

Of course, any failure to save someone's life which is readily saved could also be an abomination.

It all comes down to what one weighs as important.

> even where strict religious dietary laws are not at play.

Most strict dietary laws would allow one to eat the item, or have it put into your body, to survive. The systems with these doctrines largely have exceptions for literally millennia, because we understand that people being able to choose to live trumps artificial restrictions. (Indeed, some reach further to say that extending ones life in violation of these laws is not just permissible, but a duty).

> Determined on a very personal level, not something I can prescribe here and now.

It's fair to say "eh, I've had a good run-- why go further?" I've argued as such here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29432560 One's religious views are even a reasonable way to weigh things.

But I do think that once you reach beyond, to say that readily available care that has become routinely used to extend life (like a pacemaker) might be far outside of God's will and that this is a reasonable reason to reject it in itself-- and we can hardly ask God what He wants-- I think the argument becomes dubious.

That is, dying in infancy was the norm throughout human history. The interventions we have tamper with that outcome more than anything else. And at this point implanting a pacemaker is an outpatient procedure and on the low-scale of the medical intervention ladder.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#337

Is this really "a medical first" as the article states? I would have sworn that I heard about pig hearts being transplanted into humans at least a decade ago... Anyone from the medical field can give some background? Or am I imagining things? :-)

From another article: “ In September, Montgomery moved the work forward by becoming the first to transplant a pig kidney into a person, but in that case, and a subsequent surgery in December, the person had been declared brain dead. Montgomery kept the body functioning via machine for more than two days each time, showing that the human immune system would not immediately reject a kidney from a gene-edited pig.”

oh, I see, so I guess it's correct to say that this is the first "real" transplant and previous attempts were experiments.

Also, apparently, transplants of heart valves from pigs have been around for a while, see this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29883619

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#338
post #124

The pig was modified to remove presentation of immunogenic sugars on the cell surface. Unfortunately, the recipient needs to be on immunosuppressants the rest of their life. This rekindles discussions back in school about chimeras... in order for the organs to be immunocompatible, the donor needs to be partially human. What % is too human to harvest for organs? I suppose it's still too soon to answer such questions,…

I think the nervous system is really the only part that I'd have ethical concerns about. If they can grow a pig with a 99% human heart, I don't see why that should be more ethically concerning that harvesting a 100% pig heart.

No post body was provided.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#339
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my thoughts exactly, these animals are even smarter than dogs and according to some studies smarter than 3-year old children, which makes this even sadder. We have one as a pet in the family and they're so chill.

Sorry, "pigs are smarter than dogs" is gonna need a Citation Needed. I don't doubt some pigs are smarter than some dogs, and maybe they are comparable on average, but I'd put money on any of the working breed dogs over pigs. ("smarter" being general intelligence, reasoning, working memory, and inference. There might be some specific tasks pigs excel at, but that is different than measuring "smarts")

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/8sx4s79c#page-1

Good summary of findings there. You can draw your own conclusions - it's probably case-dependent.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#340
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are really common in biomedical testing. They are physically a similar size and weight to humans. They also reach maturity in about 6 months. Much cheaper to raise than primates, and more likely to get approval for testing. My friends in biomed grad school named one of theirs cyber pig because it has about 30 different experiments ran on it before it was killed, and afterwards it was portioned out for further te…

Weird how this is said without a shred of sympathy or concern for an intelligent, helpless creature. Weirder how it can be said without a sympathetic or concerned response. I hope we can someday move beyond seeing animals as a mere resource.

It's not weird, humans have a lot of different perspectives on life (or our simulator). It is a bit weird to me also though.
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