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Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

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Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#271
Proponents of unions seem not understand that unions only exist to enrich existing members and not benefit society, future members, the profession, or anything else.

There's a reason why new teachers, doing the same job with the same title, make less than half of what teachers with seniority do. There's a reason why many unions use credentialing as a way to restrict the free market and the only way new people can join is through nepotism.

Do unions proivde some benefits? Sure. Certainly the threat of a union can also provide said benefits. But unions, like all centralized power structures, eventually become corrupt and end up doing harm at the cost of protecting a small group.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another counter balancing force...numerous other opportunities. It's not a situation like Boeing where there's a very limited number of other places that you can take your skills.

> There is another counter balancing force...numerous other opportunities. The "take it or leave it" attitude strongly insinuates that corporations should be allowed dictatorial control over the manner in which work is completed. There are too many examples to point to which demonstrate the b.s. in this line of thinking. I may be reading too much into what you wrote, but I never understand the libertarian need to rej…

I'm not embracing corporate. I'm embracing competition.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#273
post #3

Seems to have worked amazingly well based on all the times I recall reading the comments of stories posted here involving unions.

I believe unions are actually necessary. Necessary evil at times or not, it's a human right to have a union. I've never been in a union, but my wife is. And I've worked as management with unions in a factory setting. It was fine, actually. The company I worked for that was unionized was the best, most efficient corporation that I've ever seen. In fact it was a superior there that told me, when I was more anti-union,…

> In fact it was a superior there that told me, when I was more anti-union, that "companies get the union they deserve".

What does that say about the companies that don't have a union?

> I did everything I could to get my wife into a professional career with a union, so that when I die she'll be as safe and protected without me.

The safer option is to make sure she has a skillset which is in high demand.

What's the union going to do if her company goes under?

> I also think unions would help the world, while I'm certainly not overpaid myself, my Indian colleagues deserve the same pay I receive. I'd strike for that.

Different places have different costs of living. That's the competitive advantage of people in poor countries. Have you considered that if the company had to pay them the same as they pay you, they might have hired entirely workers who are in the same timezone? Much to the chagrin of the people you thought you were helping.

> Big corps keep out competition too easily, and should be doing more to keep the American middle class around.

Big corps should be broken up. That's the solution there.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#274
post #219

Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.

> treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders Exploit you with industry leading pay and perks? Unions are designed to balance out monopolistic / low pay / highly geographical companies like large auto manufacturers or airlines. There is so much competitive hiring in tech, it’s one of the easiest c…

Remember when the DOJ was investigating Google and Apple for collusion?

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-requires-s...

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#275

Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.

Except that after/while working at Google, the shareholders aren't distant --- the shareholders are YOU. An enormous chunk of the rank-and-file's compensation package at Google is equity, so employees want the company to succeed, i.e. not get bogged down by dealing with unions that generally protect the lowest performers at the expense of the highest performers by treating everyone as an equal performer.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions reduce profits by giving employees a voice to protect themselves, demand the compensation they deserve, etc. It's therefore inevitable that corporations (Google, FAANG, or any others) will try to preempt or destroy them. It is their duty to shareholders.

Germany offers an example of unions that work with the rest of corporate leadership to maintain the health of corporate fiscal flows and labor pools among the other concerns they attenuate to. This reads to me like characatures used to construct a straw person argument. Your inevitability decoration is denied by observable fact.

No one in their right mind would rather work for a german software company in a union than work for an american one without a union.

EDIT: Hyperbole here, and it was lost on some. Despite unions in germany, German companies are exploiting their workers compared to lucrative salaries that non union US software engineers are enjoying. The gap beteween the lifestyle of a german software engineer and a US one is quite large.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#278
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is a huge, public company. Any ideals that survived going public will slowly be ground out by repeated exposure to management consultants from McKinsey and the hordes of MBAs attracted to the smell of ibanker excitement. You can't go public, or become part of a public firm, and not become more like the rest of the big players.

The rampant cynicism regarding corporations is increasingly unhelpful. We’ve had forty years of hands off antitrust regulation and enforcement. We’ve had a bifurcating justice system that doesn’t hold white collar criminals accountable. It hasn’t always been this way and doesn’t have to stay this way. For those interested in the challenges we’re facing with monopolies and individuals trying to effect change, I recomm…

Until we have a government willing and able to rein in the excesses of corporations, realism is going to look a lot like cynicism.

I'm not an anti-capitalist, and I don't expect such a government to just fall into my lap without a Herculean effort on the part of somebody, but I don't see any point in sugarcoating the current state of affairs. Corporations and other wealthy interests aren't just a symptom of our current malaise—they're a direct contributor to it.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#279

When I was very young I worked a tough job that had a mandatory union and it was quite terrible / weak. Working conditions were pretty bad, physical labor, etc. But it was not until I worked a job with no union that I realized every element of that job that didn't suck was due to the union. For example we had supervisors but they didn't follow you around and micromanage you. You were just expected to do your job. If…

Just a note: I agree that spending millions fighting unions is strong evidence unions are bad for the company. It's not necessarily obvious this means unions are good for the employees.

It really bothers me that we've all accepted (not you or me specifically, but every time I see unions discussed it's the subtext) that we have two choices: no union or a shitty union.

Why can't we work for a union that is good? If the answer is that humans are involved and it'll never be possible, then that could be applied to anything and is an absurd answer. This is not a strawman, I've heard that argument many times.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#280
post #259
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are things beyond compensation that individuals cannot easily negotiate by themselves. For example, a reasonable ask could be to never get contacted by boss or work colleagues (about work) outside of work hours (unless oncall, etc.). In the absence of group coordination that a union provides this work arrangement is simply out of reach for most.

A union won't help you get your own tailored work situation, where you enjoy never ever being contacted after hours. They'll work for a situation where everyone gets that, and everyone is treated the same. That's the whole point. Goodbye work flexibility for your entire company.

No, it’ll help everyone get their work situation where they enjoy never being contacted after hours.

Or if your position requires after hours work, it’ll ensure you are fairly compensated.

Goodbye ability for upper management to demand unpaid overtime or fire people for violating unspoken “agreements.”

(Obviously being union doesn’t force everyone into the same position description.)

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