Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#171

Post by mupuff1234 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #122

Cederfjard wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were those expectations based on real observations, or did Google just get lucky with PR from the jump?

Contrary to the shoe-pounding HN rhetoric, there are good companies and bad companies. Which one is often a function of the people running it at the highest levels. Very often companies are founded by good people with good intents, who end up leaving for one reason or another, and are taken over by people with a different set of values. I don't know enough about the internal workings of Google to say that's the case…

The founders never lost control, they're still the majority stockholder, they just stopped caring.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#172

Post by remus » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

mgaunard wrote: post #105

Unions only exist to protect mediocre people, and only cause harm to top performers. Wasn't Google supposed to be a place that only hires the best and brightest?

> Unions only exist to protect mediocre people, and only cause harm to top performers.

I think this is far too broad a statement to be useful. I personally know of several cases where a union has helped defend an employee from illegal behaviour by their employer, for example. No doubt the individuals involved could have taken the employer to a tribunal if they were suitably motivated, but having the weight of the union behind them meant the issues were resolved quickly and correctly.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#173

Post by gundmc » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #153

yupper32 wrote: post #138

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions. For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that? Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

Makes sense. They might be initially more popular in areas where companies tend not to treat their technology folks well. Game development, for example. Though there are some things that are pretty universal and unions would help with. Things like non-compete agreements, ownership of code written in off work hours, collusion across companies to "not poach", and so on. I imagine some of that might be a lot worse if th…

I think this is a big part of it. Unions at FAANG companies these days seem to be more a vehicle for social activists than winning rights for employees. If you don't agree with the goals of the union organizers, there doesn't seem to be a benefit of joining.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#174

Post by disabled » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

With Google's reach, it can be reasonable to expect that the "Unions Suck" project extended to the American populace as a whole. We just do not know how far it went.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#175

Post by busterarm » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #156

It’s a real shame that the middle and upper classes in the US have abandoned having their teens work in favor of various, expensive, college application boosting fluff. I went to work at McDonalds at age 15 and was part of a union. I have direct experience with what that is like. I don’t need to get my knowledge on the subject from flamewars between people pushing ideological agendas (most of whom themselves have app…

Shh, every time those of us who have been in actual unions and actually had terrible experiences voice our opinions we get downvoted into oblivion.

It's not worth it, m8.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#176

Post by erikerikson » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

brightstep wrote: post #71

vanusa wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Altruistic expectations, no. But I seem to recall a time (up until perhaps 15 years ago) when Google would not have been expected to engage in such blatantly Machiavellian tactics as placing fake op-eds. Nowadays though, I don't put anything past Google.

Unions reduce profits by giving employees a voice to protect themselves, demand the compensation they deserve, etc. It's therefore inevitable that corporations (Google, FAANG, or any others) will try to preempt or destroy them. It is their duty to shareholders.

Germany offers an example of unions that work with the rest of corporate leadership to maintain the health of corporate fiscal flows and labor pools among the other concerns they attenuate to.

This reads to me like characatures used to construct a straw person argument. Your inevitability decoration is denied by observable fact.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#177

Post by gaganyaan » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

vanusa wrote: post #120

Cederfjard wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were those expectations based on real observations, or did Google just get lucky with PR from the jump?

A real Googler can perhaps comment better than I. But in my hazy recollection, there did seem to be a time, long before the Andy Rubin payout, when the "Don't be evil" slogan was not quite the perverse caricature that it has become today.

Can't speak to internally, but public perception used to be very friendly to google. Relevant xkcd comic:

https://xkcd.com/792/

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#178

Post by moduspol » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

supergeek133 wrote: post #128

Every major company I've worked for/with that has a large service workforce (Retail, MFG, etc) has "union avoidance" employees/training. I recall my first week as a Best Buy part time tech in 2002, we watched a video on how Unions are bad.

I mean from a business perspective if you're not doing any training then you're essentially just sitting on your hands waiting for the day employees unionize. And it's not like unions go out of their way to give a fair and complete picture of the up and downsides of a union. If you don't make the case to the employees, nobody else is going to.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#179

Post by brightball » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

throwaway2048 wrote: post #169

brightball wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another counter balancing force...numerous other opportunities. It's not a situation like Boeing where there's a very limited number of other places that you can take your skills.

The counterbalancing forces google actively colludes with you mean?

Is Google colluding with every employer and entrepreneur in the country?

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#180

Post by 4ec0755f5522 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

When I was very young I worked a tough job that had a mandatory union and it was quite terrible / weak. Working conditions were pretty bad, physical labor, etc. But it was not until I worked a job with no union that I realized every element of that job that didn't suck was due to the union. For example we had supervisors but they didn't follow you around and micromanage you. You were just expected to do your job. If you didn't you would be reprimanded of course, but no one was on your case at all. Supervisors had to show you a base level of respect: there were rules on that stuff. There were a lot of rules, actually, and even though the union didn't have a lot of power I'm pretty sure every single positive one, anything that gave employees even a sliver of autonomy and power, were things that the union fought for and got for us.

I still was kind of anti-union after that. "Anti Union" is the wrong phrasing, it was more... I was very suspicious of their structure, their own profit motive(s) etc. People working for the union had it so much better than the people actually doing the work, and we were the ones paying for and funding it, right? That aspect of it I never got over, but I now think that it may have been the wrong point of view.

I have recently come around full swing and am 100% pro union. And it is stories like this. Starbucks, Google, Amazon, these companies will spend millions to fight unions. This is prima facie evidence to me that unions benefit workers. These companies all talk the same talk: "we believe companies work best when team members can work directly with the company with no union in the way". As though Amazon warehouse workers have some kind of communication path to improve their working conditions when they are being managed and fired by an AI. What a buncha fkn BS.

Things cost. Good things cost money. You are paying for someone to fight for your interests and not the company's interest. Maybe that is worth paying for. And if you don't pay money to a union to fight you pay with your physical health, your safety, your respect, your mental health. If you work for Amazon you pay with your life when they threaten to fire you if you try to leave in order to hide from a hurricane. We should all be in unions.