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Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

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Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#101

Post by TrevorAustin »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #69
giraffe_lady wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am by no means a NYT-liker but I don't think they're particularly anti-tech. We had been riding on a couple decades of public good will and consistent credulity and optimism from media and the public. Compared to that it probably does feel hostile. But it's just them being part of the general and widespread shift of more skepticism towards tech's promises and more awareness of its downsides.

I might agree, but consider my dark patterns example. The author of the article was super mad, lambasting tech companies left and right for dark patterns, called it a bunch of different synonyms of immoral, etc. His own paper, The New York Times, has a dark pattern system so pervasive that people here, on Hacker News, had to tell their bank to block payments because they couldn't get to the end of it. I've seen this…

Do you mean this story about dark patterns? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/technology/e-commerce-dar...

Because the author (who does not control how NYT subscriptions work) does mention that in the story:

> About 30 sites made it easy to sign up for services but particularly hard to cancel, requiring phone calls or other procedures. The Times requires people to talk with a representative online or by phone to cancel subscriptions, but the researchers did not study it or other publishing sites.

And highlighted it on her social media promotion of her work: https://twitter.com/jenvalentino/status/1143531833147240449?...

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#102

Post by cokeandpepsi »

3pt14159 wrote: post #38
queuebert wrote: post #23

Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.

What if adversarial systems result in asymmetric arms races and the game theoretic best move is to work for a corporation that is so short sighted as to go to battle against their own employees and to work for them diligently and intelligently? Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors. I'm not saying this is an all-or-nothing thing. I'd join a union if I was working for a certa…

> when it comes to technology companies, I got to say it's pretty good here.

At the moment yeah in some areas but I wouldn't say that 12 years or ago, and maybe not 12 years from now

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#103

Post by headmelted »

brightstep wrote: post #71
vanusa wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Altruistic expectations, no. But I seem to recall a time (up until perhaps 15 years ago) when Google would not have been expected to engage in such blatantly Machiavellian tactics as placing fake op-eds. Nowadays though, I don't put anything past Google.

Unions reduce profits by giving employees a voice to protect themselves, demand the compensation they deserve, etc. It's therefore inevitable that corporations (Google, FAANG, or any others) will try to preempt or destroy them. It is their duty to shareholders.

This is downvoted, I assume because people are maybe disagreeing with the principle rather than the validity of what you said.

A lot of large companies clearly do look at unions as something that forces them to pay more compensation for less work, which they'd have to justify to shareholders and the board. Even if the board would be cool with it, and they could make it fly with shareholders, leadership bonuses and stock grants are tied to performance. I really don't see where this is an incorrect statement to make.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#104

Post by steve_adams_86 »

vegai_ wrote: post #41

I slightly fear how much of my own thinking is there just because some corporation or another big entity wanted me to think like that and spent considerable resources to make it happen.

It’s almost certainly true, but an accessible and rational strategy to combat that is to critically consider why you think anything that you do if you haven’t yet.

Maybe that seems obvious written out, but it wasn’t to me at first. I felt a deep sense of being a product of my environment in a negative sense. I think what happened was that I began to see holes in my knowledge or understanding of things I thought I knew and it was a little unsettling. These days I just try to stop myself and ask: why do I think that? How far down the chain do I need to go in order to find concrete information?

To some people this is probably very intuitive. And it is for most of us when it comes to matters of science. But what about your opinion of companies, products, or even people? I think we all get into habits of being influenced here - it’s literally in our genes and can be very covert.

I guess in a sense this is like personal epistemology. It’s important to study on a macro scale, but also on a micro scale in individual day to day operations.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#106

Post by NikolaNovak »

outside1234 wrote: post #58
3pt14159 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if adversarial systems result in asymmetric arms races and the game theoretic best move is to work for a corporation that is so short sighted as to go to battle against their own employees and to work for them diligently and intelligently? Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors. I'm not saying this is an all-or-nothing thing. I'd join a union if I was working for a certa…

Are they happier at Tesla? Because I hear it is pretty terrible place to work as a software engineer.

Note that "Software Engineer" is likely a small and skewed percentage of Tesla let alone GM employees :).

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#107

Post by dls2016 »

n8cpdx wrote: post #51
mhoad wrote: post #3

Seems to have worked amazingly well based on all the times I recall reading the comments of stories posted here involving unions.

Some of us have seen the exorbitant damage bad unions can cause, for example ILWU destroying Portland, OR’s container shipping industry in a bid to steal two jobs from another union. https://www.universalcargo.com/jury-hits-ilwu-with-93m-verdi... (less industry-oriented source: https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/11/29/longshore-union-faces-... ) See also: public sector unions.

Unions are comprised of large groups of people, and are subject to make the same kinds of "self-serving" mistakes as any other large group of people (like corporations and governments and universities and churches and...).

Which is entirely the point!

Why should we trust a large monopoly like Google to have workers' best interests at heart when there's no counter-balancing force with the same power (be it a union, or trust-busting arm of the federal government)?

Everyone forgets that Google and Apple already colluded to suppress wages! https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/01/16/37...

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#109

Post by hermannj314 »

vegai_ wrote: post #41

I slightly fear how much of my own thinking is there just because some corporation or another big entity wanted me to think like that and spent considerable resources to make it happen.

I recycle, get vaccinated, care about global climate change and am concerned about police brutality all because large entities convinced me to be. Without them, I am not sure I would have enough personal experience to know these are things I am supposed to care about.

Manipulating the public opinion is a tool to make change happen. It isn't inherently good or bad.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#110

Post by jfim »

drawfloat wrote: post #13
mrits wrote: post #5

Yeah, let's focus on the company that pays their employees 15x minimum wage and has top tier vacation, healthcare, and maternity/paternity leave.

Apart from the majority of their workforce who are classed as TVCs and do not enjoy most of those benefits/only enjoyed some since staff walked off two years ago. Hell, in many places they haven't even been paying what they legally are required to: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/10/google-un...

The reason for the separate treatment of TVCs and full time employees is likely due to the Microsoft independent contractor lawsuits a long time ago.

Microsoft used to treat independent contractors similarly to full time employees, except for a few benefits such as participation in their stock benefits. When the IRS ruled that the independent contractors were really employees due to them being treated similarly as full time employees, independent contractors sued Microsoft to get stock benefits as well.

See https://www.reuters.com/article/businesspropicks-us-findlaw-...

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