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Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

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Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#161

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions. For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that? Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

I agree. To take it one step further: I have a pretty good relationship with my employer (coincidentally, Google). I don't need or want a third party to get in the middle of it.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#162

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions. For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that? Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

Your talents may be used to make the lives of people that did not have the same opportunity as you more unfair, difficult, surveilled, and dangerous. Whatever it takes to maximize the amount of profit.

A union isn't just about wages, it's also about being able to speak collectively against decisions that commoditize human lives.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#164

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions. For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that? Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

Indeed.

Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering.

To the point that the federal government had to break some of the power of unions in order to break up the effectiveness of mafia racketeering.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#165

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions. For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that? Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

Yep, tech can pay their employees very very well to ignore moral quandaries. Yet many still do care, goes to show money can’t fully buy people out.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#166
post #161

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions. For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that? Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

I agree. To take it one step further: I have a pretty good relationship with my employer (coincidentally, Google). I don't need or want a third party to get in the middle of it.

Also, Googles largest union, AWU, does not focus on anything I care about, so why should I pay them dues?

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were those expectations based on real observations, or did Google just get lucky with PR from the jump?

During the early phases of organization building, Google needed to build a huge army of engineers in a competitive hiring environment. To do that they had to convince potential hires that it would be morally acceptable to build the most sophisticated tracking/surveillance system in human history. (I don't think this was entirely cynical: I also think it was also necessary for the founders to convince themselves that…

I think also their free products (search, and then email) where so so good and miles ahead of the alternative that people also wanted to be convinced themselves that it was a "not evil" company. Still to the day, where there's ok alternatives and search and mail are riddled with spam problems, being Google-less is not straightforward and takes actual work. The mental energy can just be diverted into convincing yourself Google is not that bad or that everything is fine because everyone else is using it and you'll probably be ok.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wonder how much of HN culture is affected by very smart people (in one domain) being subconsciously led to believe things by the machinations of tech. As smart people, they take very passionate positions on issues they believe strongly. Perhaps they wouldn't have believed them so strongly in a vacuum though?

You nailed something that I've noticed. Highly competent and intelligent people tend to lean libertarian in my experience. It's only when they get cancer, or finally meet some form of humility that they see the inherent advantages they had over others for what it is. Simply a roll of the dice. Competent, capable, hardworking people often fail to see the bigger picture, and dismiss others that aren't like them. If you…

IMO, this is a fairly simplistic view. You're assuming that highly competent and intelligent people don't see the forces at work which create and exaggerate these different situations.

I lean libertarian because I see all of the problems that come from federal level programs trapping us into a status quo that we are mostly powerless to change. You want to change the way that healthcare or education works...let's just say in your county of residence. It's virtually impossible, not because we lack smart people with better solutions but because the money for healthcare and education is already tied up.

Wealthy people can afford private schools or alternative approaches to healthcare if they want. The rest of the population is stuck with what they are given, whether they want it or not.

I don't know anyone who is happy with the state of public schools in the United States: teachers, students or parents. We're all mostly powerless to change it though.

It's not a lack of humility that creates these views, it's empathy for people who are stuck and want things to be better. I lean libertarian because I see the effects that are making it harder to improve all of our lives.

I simply want to reduce the barriers between a person having an idea of how to do things better and trying that out with other people who agree with them. If it works, it will be imitated and improved upon. If it doesn't, it will be discarded. This type of experimentation naturally leads to constant improvement.

People need freedom to make their own choices without having to ask for permission.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are comprised of large groups of people, and are subject to make the same kinds of "self-serving" mistakes as any other large group of people (like corporations and governments and universities and churches and...). Which is entirely the point! Why should we trust a large monopoly like Google to have workers' best interests at heart when there's no counter-balancing force with the same power (be it a union, or…

There is another counter balancing force...numerous other opportunities. It's not a situation like Boeing where there's a very limited number of other places that you can take your skills.

The counterbalancing forces google actively colludes with you mean?

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#170
post #161

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions. For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that? Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

I agree. To take it one step further: I have a pretty good relationship with my employer (coincidentally, Google). I don't need or want a third party to get in the middle of it.

Everyone has a good relationship with their employer _until they don't._

And when the relationship goes bad it also becomes very, very one-sided.

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