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Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

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Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#151

Post by defaultprimate »

Ginden wrote: post #139
defaultprimate wrote: post #111

I mean Google is genuinely evil, but unions do suck. UAW, NEA, and AFL-CIO have been absolutely terrible for their respective industries.

Unions are organizations that transfer value from employer and non-union members (including not-employed-yet employees and customers) to union members. Long term effects of that transfer are rather unpredictable, because there are too many factors in economy.

No they aren't, they are organizations that utilize collective bargaining in place of productivity or efficiency increases in the labor force, thereby diluting the labor market with an artificial baseline at levels lower than the market would dictate otherwise. They don't transfer any value, they just reduce the overall value of the industry and provide the illusion that union members are receiving a satisfactory portion of this reduced value.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#152

Post by mgaunard »

sunaurus wrote: post #83
BuckRogers wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You nailed something that I've noticed. Highly competent and intelligent people tend to lean libertarian in my experience. It's only when they get cancer, or finally meet some form of humility that they see the inherent advantages they had over others for what it is. Simply a roll of the dice. Competent, capable, hardworking people often fail to see the bigger picture, and dismiss others that aren't like them. If you…

I have the opposite experience - I’ve found that people who are good at abstract thinking (most of my software engineering colleagues) tend to also have more empathy than average people. In fact, I believe empathy is just a form of abstract thinking.

Sympathy yes, empathy not so much.

Abstract thinking pretty much makes it so that you can reason about your emotions, so you're not subject to that of others.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#153

Post by tyingq »

yupper32 wrote: post #138

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions. For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that? Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

Makes sense. They might be initially more popular in areas where companies tend not to treat their technology folks well. Game development, for example.

Though there are some things that are pretty universal and unions would help with. Things like non-compete agreements, ownership of code written in off work hours, collusion across companies to "not poach", and so on.

I imagine some of that might be a lot worse if the state of California didn't happen to take the positions they do. If Texas were instead the hotbed for tech companies, I think unions might be more popular.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#154

Post by masklinn »

supergeek133 wrote: post #128

Every major company I've worked for/with that has a large service workforce (Retail, MFG, etc) has "union avoidance" employees/training. I recall my first week as a Best Buy part time tech in 2002, we watched a video on how Unions are bad.

> "union avoidance" employees/training.

The word you're looking for is "propaganda".

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#155

Post by btmiller »

yupper32 wrote: post #138

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions. For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that? Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

I tend to agreed because I’m very likely to retire/be financially independent much, much earlier than 65 thanks to my tech career.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#156

Post by bradleyjg »

It’s a real shame that the middle and upper classes in the US have abandoned having their teens work in favor of various, expensive, college application boosting fluff.

I went to work at McDonalds at age 15 and was part of a union. I have direct experience with what that is like. I don’t need to get my knowledge on the subject from flamewars between people pushing ideological agendas (most of whom themselves have apparently never had direct experience.)

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#157

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

p_j_w wrote: post #87
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this kind of analysis is ever productive. Have you considered the possibility that they’ve been convinced not by subconscious machinations but by arguments they believe are valid? If someone went around saying that your beliefs come from subconscious influence operations, is there any way you could prove them wrong?

>I don’t think this kind of analysis is ever productive. Not even if it's true?

The problem is that it's always true. If you're open to changing your mind in response to evidence and arguments, then your current beliefs will depend on which information you've seen, and thus you will have been influenced by organizations who chose to promote information supporting their own beliefs. We're affected by the machinations of tech, but also the machinations of retailers and unions and political parties and editors and...

I can imagine someone presenting this as an argument for being open-minded, and that might make sense. But in every instance I've seen, including this one, it was deployed as an argument that some specific belief should be disregarded because the people who hold it have been tricked. That kind of selective skepticism doesn't make sense.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#158

Post by stjohnswarts »

karaterobot wrote: post #100
mhoad wrote: post #3

Seems to have worked amazingly well based on all the times I recall reading the comments of stories posted here involving unions.

I was in the UAW for about 6 six years. My dad was a Teamster for about 30 years. My feelings on unions are mixed — there are pluses and minuses — but they're mine. What I hear on HN a lot of the time is a naive belief that unions are an unalloyed good, and I'm not sure where that comes from. I won't accuse anybody of being a shill, I just think they're getting their information secondhand and don't fully appreciate…

I'm in a similar position. I think given the propensity for criminal organizations to "dabble" I think all unions should have federal oversight just like corporations (which don't have enough) and that there should be very transparent finances that are open to the Feds and to the union members themselves to prevent criminal connections. Also I have seen unions go overboard with "this is my job and will be my cousin Vinnie's when I retire next year". So nepotism/boys_club issues can easily form as well, at least in the 3 unions or so I have experience with through family members. I personally have never been in a union, but I can see pluses and minuses on both sides that can be at least under some amount of control with 3rd party auditors, whether that's governmental or via transparency from union members.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#159

Post by ebdbdbdb »

yupper32 wrote: post #138

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions. For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that? Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

No post body was provided.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#160

Post by baq »

karaterobot wrote: post #100
mhoad wrote: post #3

Seems to have worked amazingly well based on all the times I recall reading the comments of stories posted here involving unions.

I was in the UAW for about 6 six years. My dad was a Teamster for about 30 years. My feelings on unions are mixed — there are pluses and minuses — but they're mine. What I hear on HN a lot of the time is a naive belief that unions are an unalloyed good, and I'm not sure where that comes from. I won't accuse anybody of being a shill, I just think they're getting their information secondhand and don't fully appreciate…

unions nowadays should be something like HR, but for employee benefit instead of the company. basically something that HR needs to talk to to get things done instead of just doing stupid things.

what unions really are often is something that primarily serves a select few members of the union, which is worse than not having a union at all.

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