Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths • Hacker News Board

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#11

Post by kombine » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

So what would you propose as a solution specifically for Oxford? Many streets such as Abingdon Rd are already narrow enough and I can't see how one could segregate a dedicated lane for cyclists there.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#12

Post by gsliepen » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

In the Netherlands there are also roads with just a painted bike lane. The difference is that the whole bike lane is painted in a solid color (usually reddish). This gives a constant visual feedback to drivers. Because of the paint it is just ever so slightly raised and has a different texture than the regular asphalt, so there can be a noticable difference in sound when car tires go onto the bike lane.

See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands#/me...

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#13

Post by the_french » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 2:46 PM UTC

jhoelzel wrote: post #6

Here in Berlin you can easily get with the bike through the entire city. If you survive that is a different topic, but you could if you wanted! IMHO the future lies somewhere between bikes, elon musk and the city tram. What we actually need is a vehicle that fullfills all criteria in some form. For instance: getting out of your apartment and onto one of those scooters to the next subway station where you either conne…

> But we know how that goes and nobody actually will care about the scooter enough to return or take care of it.

Looking at countries like the Netherlands this is not true. Train stations have rentable bikes which are always available in sufficient quantities.

> So what do we do? Uber-Tesla-Subway pods. I call it by phone, it shows up to my house, either transfers me or lets me dock with the subway and then brings me the last mile just to leave me there for the next thing it has to do.

Individual 'pods' will just never be a sufficiently scalable & ecologically friendly solution for any real city. There's just no way that having several hundred kilos of metal & plastic per individual, along with the space requirements (esp for safety) works.

On the other hand, autonomous & shared 'cars' could replace individual vehicles for hauling / transporting as peak usage would be much lower than for transit.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#14

Post by jimmytidey » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 2:47 PM UTC

the_biot wrote: post #8

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

It's equally frustrating how a certain class of people, i.e. rabid anti-car cyclists, only read publications within their bubble that are equally anti-car, while constantly throwing shade at any country that is not the paradise Netherlands. I encourage you to take that next step: only commenting on these type of stories within your bubble.

I'm a cyclist but I try to get as many perspectives as possible.

Can you recommend some alternative material for cyclists who want to see the other side?

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#15

Post by forgetfulness » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 2:47 PM UTC

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

NYC has, at least in Brooklyn, a quite extensive bike lanes network.

It's of very inconsistent quality, besides workarounds that are tolerable given circumstance, like that the path cuts off at one point and resumes on the other lane in the street, the abundance of bike lanes that lack any separation at all from the main street makes it so morons use it as a place to stop their cars or trucks, and then you have to make dangerous maneuvers to get around them, or stop and hope some car gives you right of way when the street is busy.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#16

Post by mcnesium » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 2:47 PM UTC

jhoelzel wrote: post #6

Here in Berlin you can easily get with the bike through the entire city. If you survive that is a different topic, but you could if you wanted! IMHO the future lies somewhere between bikes, elon musk and the city tram. What we actually need is a vehicle that fullfills all criteria in some form. For instance: getting out of your apartment and onto one of those scooters to the next subway station where you either conne…

for the majority of people it should also be fine to walk (yes, walk!) from their appartment to the next bus/tram/subway station around the corner.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#17

Post by mrtksn » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 2:47 PM UTC

Europe has some serious success in this. UK is also not that bad, London has "Cycle Superhighways"[0], which are essentially 2 way designated lines with 1 bike per line capacity.

The problem comes down to coverage patchiness. In some places these lines are simply a marking on the road that will not always be respected by the cars and there are places where you need to cycle among large buses and other vehicles which can get scary if there are many of those.

But other than that, even in relatively large cities like London, bike only transportation is very feasible.

Even better, if you are not feeling like break sweat, there are hybrid electric bikes where the electric motor will propel you down the road and you can push the pedals only when you want to do it.

Bike lines are also good for other personal transportation solutions that are getting popular.

Carless transportation in the cities is mostly solved problem actually.

[0] https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/routes-and-maps/cycleways

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#18

Post by pmontra » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 2:48 PM UTC

If any of you have been to Milan, the inner circle of the image [1] is more or less the city boundary. That path could be anything between 70 to 100 km according to how they'll design it. I had no problems cycling 100+ km around the city during the second quasi-lockdown of one winter ago.

The grey area is what's called "città metropolitana" now, basically the old province of Milan including more than 100 of other cities. Milan accounts for almost half of the population.

[1] Deep link to the bike paths network https://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/main_width/pu...

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#19

Post by the-dude » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 2:48 PM UTC

kombine wrote: post #11

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

So what would you propose as a solution specifically for Oxford? Many streets such as Abingdon Rd are already narrow enough and I can't see how one could segregate a dedicated lane for cyclists there.

NL does not segregate in historical inner cities either.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#20

Post by lobochrome » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 2:48 PM UTC

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

I'm a road biker and would love fully separated bikeways wherever possible. The scheme in Milano sounds exciting and full of the right spirit.

That being said, painted lines, in reality, do positively affect safety, both perceived (at least by me) and in accident statistics. Rethinking our cities towards multi-modal transportation will take time.

I believe maximalist positions ("only physically separated bike lanes are acceptable!" probably don't lead to better results, faster.