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New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

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Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#41

Post by alexmcc81 »

robbiep wrote: post #28
alexmcc81 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’ll take a stand against your claim of there being a tsunami of patients with vaccine injuries in i dating rhumatologies I'm not making that claim. I'm only providing an anecdote about my local health service and that is what I have been told. > However, if it is happening, we will surely see it in the data. I guess it will take time since these conditions can take time to manifest or be diagnosed. I really hope it…

Well I’m taking a stand against the anecdote then

> Well I’m taking a stand against the anecdote then

I am not generalising, just providing a single data point about my local health service which is very relevant to my treatment. Even if it an outlier or does not match your colleagues experiences it does not make it less true for me.

I recommend reading the top comment by walterbell. Not everything is an attack on medicine/science. While it's important to keep discussions honest/scientifically accurate, it's also important to show some empathy and realise not everything is a debate or attack.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#43

Post by nicoburns »

yunohn wrote: post #37
robbiep wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they aren’t in the same magnitude - for example, incidences of peri/myocarditis is 30x (at a minimum) greater in someone who has COVID vs someone vaccinated; and vaccination leads to shorter milder breakthrough infections which (should - I can’t claim to have seen a study) lead to a lower incidence compared to someone who was unvaccinated and infected

Yes, that’s my doubt as well. Until we have more unbiased studies coming out, we can’t determine the impact of these side effects. The problem with pro-vaccine propaganda is that it tells you to blindly listen to the science. The problem with that is “the science” is controlled by commercial interests and profit margins. It’s like telling everyone democracy is the One True Way and we end up in last-stage capitalism.

> The problem with that is “the science” is controlled by commercial interests and profit margins.

Is it? A good proportion of academia is funded by states, non-profits, and tuition from undergraduate students, and researchers generally operate with a great degree of autonomy. Of course there is corrupt research out there, but I see little evidence that it's pervasive.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#44

Post by michaelcampbell »

c7DJTLrn wrote: post #39

Quoted post unavailable.

> every possible side effect beforehand

I'd wager we don't on 95% of the vax's out there now that "everyone" considers safe. The human physiology just isn't something well suited for "every possible".

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#45

Post by robbiep »

yunohn wrote: post #37
robbiep wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they aren’t in the same magnitude - for example, incidences of peri/myocarditis is 30x (at a minimum) greater in someone who has COVID vs someone vaccinated; and vaccination leads to shorter milder breakthrough infections which (should - I can’t claim to have seen a study) lead to a lower incidence compared to someone who was unvaccinated and infected

Yes, that’s my doubt as well. Until we have more unbiased studies coming out, we can’t determine the impact of these side effects. The problem with pro-vaccine propaganda is that it tells you to blindly listen to the science. The problem with that is “the science” is controlled by commercial interests and profit margins. It’s like telling everyone democracy is the One True Way and we end up in last-stage capitalism.

Well - I’m not sure I have doubts but I remain open to the possibility. As a doctor and public health advocate I think the vaccines are miracles and have saved already millions of lives. Our society is already fundamentally changed by the damage wrought by the virus. There are over 140,000 ORPHANS that have been created by COVID in the last 2 years in the US alone [0].

The vaccine is safe and effective, if unfortunately not sterilizingly effective. We could not have sat on our hands for 2 years waiting to see what happened to the 40,000 people in the initial trials.

If there is another chapter to the vaccine story it will come out, because ‘the science’ is not controlled by commercial interests and profit margins, ‘the science’ is something done by thousands of doctors and researchers scattered all over the planet, with access to huge troves of data that are not necessarily all entertained with corporate interests like in the US, and these people care about 2 things : the truth, and the people they care for every day.

I don’t want to get into a grinding debate about the commercial interests behind the vaccines - I am ready to accept that they quite often work in ways that would fail the smell test. But that is not science, science is the process of developing a better resolution of the truth and whilst it may be subverted by corporations it can not be stopped

0- https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p1007-covid-19-orpha...

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#46

Post by feistypharit »

Don’t forget the placebo effect works both ways. All the antivax people that got the vaccine even though they may not have wanted to, are going attribute everything weird that then happens to the vaccine.

This is all going to take years to sort out and figure out what’s real and what’s not. And we’ll never know 100%. The bigger issue is whether we’ll be able to trust our present or future leaders to let science do its job.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#47

Post by [deleted] »

thebruce87m wrote: post #30
alexmcc81 wrote: post #14

I'm in this boat. I'm worried I now have a life long disability before 35. I'm waiting for an appointment with a Rheumatology consultant and I have been told by my doctor they have been inundated with people with post COVID vaccine side effects. Edit: I would like to hear other people's experiences if they are willing to post them.

My MIL has rheumatoid arthritis which came on suddenly last year out of nowhere. It’s always in the back of your head that perhaps it has some link to the vaccination but I’m withholding judgment until proper statistics are available. She was a ( daily ) smoker but has given up since the diagnosis. Note that everyone in both families are vaccinated, boosted etc and it has not changed her opinion on vaccination.

[deleted]

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#48

Post by ekianjo »

robbiep wrote: post #23
alexmcc81 wrote: post #14

I'm in this boat. I'm worried I now have a life long disability before 35. I'm waiting for an appointment with a Rheumatology consultant and I have been told by my doctor they have been inundated with people with post COVID vaccine side effects. Edit: I would like to hear other people's experiences if they are willing to post them.

I’m sorry to hear about your issues. With respect, I’ll take a stand against your claim of there being a tsunami of patients with vaccine injuries innundating rheumatologists - I am in the field and continue to ask colleagues if they are seeing anything of the sort and no-one has seen anything like this. However, if it is happening, we will surely see it in the data. Australia is almost fully vaccinated (but also mor…

> we will surely see it in the data

Thats only assuming you have proper data collection and reporting in place. The current systems to do so are laughable.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#49

Post by nicoburns »

refurb wrote: post #29
raverbashing wrote: post #6

Anyone that's worried about autoimmune phenomena after vaccination should look at autoimmune phenomena post Covid infection

Ok, but if I get vaccines I’m exposed, but may not be exposed to Covid or at least a variant that causes an immune disorder.

Unless you're planning to isolate at home indefinitely or live somewhere very remote you are pretty much guaranteed to be exposed to covid at some point. A good proportion of my friends have already had it twice. Consider that Omicron is more infectious than the common cold and how many colds you've had in your life.

The main risk factor in whether you develop an auto-immune disorder (other than the specifics of your own body and immune system which you can't do much about) seems to be the severity of the infection. You can still get these issues with a mild infection, but it's much less likely. And a vaccine pretty much is just a very mild infection with an engineered variant that can't reproduce, which then also reduces the severity if you later catch it. So intuitively it would seem like a pretty good bet. And as others have pointed out the statistics support that this is also true in practice.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#50

Post by taf2 »

feistypharit wrote: post #46

Don’t forget the placebo effect works both ways. All the antivax people that got the vaccine even though they may not have wanted to, are going attribute everything weird that then happens to the vaccine. This is all going to take years to sort out and figure out what’s real and what’s not. And we’ll never know 100%. The bigger issue is whether we’ll be able to trust our present or future leaders to let science do it…

One thing IMO - that would help our leaders is if they recognize “science” is not a person or a thing… it’s a process. Away if thinking that allows for the discovery of both positive and negative outcomes. It is a process. /2cents
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