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School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

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Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#211
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's enough artificial light that circadian rhythm barely applies to teens. Yes, I can change my sleep schedule, and have done so multiple times. If you're tired enough to be "sleep deprived" then you're going to be perfectly capable of going to sleep at 10 instead of 1am, barring some insomniac disorder. It's dark outside at both times. Circadian rhythm doesn't overrule real sleep deprivation. If you're tired, yo…

I have tried sleeping earlier on times I'm sleep deprived, the only result is me staying in my bed for hours on end without sleeping. As a kid, as I mentioned in my original post, my parents would put me to bed with lights out around 9. I wasn't able to sleep despite being sleep deprived. Nowadays, I work in a different time zone and due to work and meetings, I sleep around 3am every day. I fall asleep instantly and…

I cannot relate to being sleepy, lying in bed at night, yet unable to sleep. That sounds like the definition of an insomnia disorder. It seems to me that for most of the population, sleeping when sleepy is not going to be an impossible ask. Much of the difficulty goes away when you avoid artificial light, like from phones, in the evenings. It's just that teens would prefer to be sleepy rather than go to bed early and avoid phone.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was the same as a kid - I really struggled with the early mornings, and could never sleep before midnight. Come the weekend, and I was so tired I'd sleep until midday. When I first started at high school, I was a great student, for example winning multiple prizes over the first 18 months. But the tiredness really took a toll, and for most of the rest of school I was a half zombie - I still did well at school, but I…

my solution worked ok: sleep at school. it's not ideal, but it also saved me from being entirely brainwashed and prevented teachers from killing my creativity. let's not ignore the fact schools were designed long ago to 1/ shape future factory workers into well behaved blue collars, while 2/ making it possible for parents to go to work. before the industrial revolution, most people were farmers. Kids were out playing…

If you mean sleep in a dorm at school, I'll have you know that didn't help either.

First class of the day was at 730 and what that really meant was rolling out of bed at 725 still in my clothes from last night and trudging over to the building next door where I would be marked present and immediately fall asleep in my desk. The first class was utterly worthless as far as I know and I learned not a thing. Shower and change of clothes and actually starting my day happend during breakfast break later.

Part of the problem, imo, is that quiet time in the dorm started at 1045 but was poorly enforced so often it was impossible to get to sleep till 1130 or later.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#213
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been to various parts of Texas in the summertime on numerous occasions, I can't imagine what it's like to have to wear a mask outdoors as a child. Glad you made the move and it sounds like you're enjoying it. Are you in the Austin area?

It's humid. It can't be comfortable in a mask while outdoors. Will be interesting to see the science on the impact of not being able to communicate with facial expression for a chunk of your developmental years. Maybe it will be nothing, but probably not Yes, I'm in Austin. Love it. Knew I'd love it. Was just a matter of time before we got here. Yes, there's a broad political spectrum with people here, but by and lar…

Funny enough in 2014 I almost moved to Austin. I had an offer from a local startup. Thankfully I picked up some bad vibes in the interviews and said no. A couple of months later it turned out that the company had been fraudulently winning contracts from the state with shady connections. I would have been unemployed 3 months after moving there.

My wife and I have talked about moving to Texas but we wouldn't be very close to Austin. We would probably get a big piece of land in a decidedly less hip part of the state.

I love the Hill Country, and if you haven't had a chance you should go check out San Antonio. The Riverwalk is a tourist trap that's fun for kids, but the restaurants in other parts of San Antonio phenomenal. Tejano culture/food is amazing. I really like New Braunfels too.

Colorado as a state is a pretty great place. Our governor has been very good in the pandemic and in my opinion has probably been one of the best Democratic governors. He has a pretty strong background in business and from the very beginning of the pandemic was engaging routinely with business leaders including executives at the company I was working at then. He has that perfect mix of classic liberal values with a dash of libertarianism.

Unfortunately the county we live in has gone a little off the rails when it comes to public health. Although I am an atheist, my wife works at a Christian school and my kids get a big tuition discount, so I enrolled both of them in that school. The academics at the school are top-notch and it's pretty cool that my son's calculus and computer science teacher graduated from MIT a few years ago. The public high school doesn't compare. The fact that it was barely open last year is a whole separate issue. One of the first things I noticed is that the county health department has routinely harassed this school. They never have set foot on the public schools that my kids were at previously. I know some of the principals and confirmed that they have never had a single inspection from the county health department.

I have a strong suspicion but obviously can't prove, that the current county health director doesn't like Christians. I suspect that she has a lot of emotional scars since she is a lesbian and likely spent decades wanting to get married and having people who claim to represent Christianity preventing her from doing so. I don't fault her for that, but I do fault her for allowing her emotional feelings to clearly create a bias that influences her very much targeted and selective enforcement. Another aspect of her that I really dislike is the fact that she is a PhD in sports injuries, but acts as if this education is remotely related to viral epidemiology. She really doesn't appear to know what she's talking about and has aggressively complained in some leaked emails about the governor not "being strict enough because of his libertarian streak". She requires that student athletes wear masks while playing sports. This is insanity to me. The idea that cloth masks are effective pretty much became out of date once Delta hit. With omicron it's just absurd. We are talking about measles level transmissibility and it's been known for decades that cloth masks aren't effective for that kind of virus. The county requires that all of the athletes be vaccinated as well, so the mask requirement on top of that is a bit hard to swallow.

None of this foolishness is going to age well. My subjective opinion after reading the leaked emails is that she has definitely allowed the power to go to her head. The language she uses is very aggressive and indicates a big us versus them mentality when it comes to religious schools.

These kinds of local government officials have increasingly made Texas look good to us.

Have you traveled recently? It's a bit of a shock to go from a place where people are relatively unpanicked and show up on the west coast and realize that people are grossly overestimating their risk and acting out from that. They don't seem to be aware of how normal life is in most of the country. They have this picture of Florida as being a place where body bags are being piled up outside of hospitals. It must be painful for the minority of those folks who stop and look at the data and realize that most of the sacrifices they have made in their lives have been for nothing. Florida is spiking in new cases like many states, but the number per 100,000 is less than New York's is. That really must bother people in NY.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my solution worked ok: sleep at school. it's not ideal, but it also saved me from being entirely brainwashed and prevented teachers from killing my creativity. let's not ignore the fact schools were designed long ago to 1/ shape future factory workers into well behaved blue collars, while 2/ making it possible for parents to go to work. before the industrial revolution, most people were farmers. Kids were out playing…

If you mean sleep in a dorm at school, I'll have you know that didn't help either. First class of the day was at 730 and what that really meant was rolling out of bed at 725 still in my clothes from last night and trudging over to the building next door where I would be marked present and immediately fall asleep in my desk. The first class was utterly worthless as far as I know and I learned not a thing. Shower and c…

I just wanted to comment on how interesting it is to observe differences in upbringing and culture :)

When reading the parent comment, I naturally assumed they were talking about sleeping in class, as that wasy solution to the sleep problem as well. To this day I routinely meet people that seem to file this possibility away in the "impossible" drawer of their minds or assume that "this person doesn't look like trash that sleeps during class" and conclude that there's been a misunderstanding.

Just to be clear, I am not lashing out at you (or anyone), and just wanted to make this comment more vivid to emphasize how expectations and assumptions make it all too easy to misinterpret a statement as a "typo" of a different statement altogether.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a huge part of the problem with the American education system is exemplified right here with belittling the role of teachers.

A lot of what teachers do is exactly just that—basically talking at the pupils, as if they were vessels who are supposed to have their heads filled up with knowledge. Proper learning is supposed to be more active and pupil-directed. Look at the Deweyite schools in America. If you find that to be a belittling description then I’m sorry, but that’s largely what teachers do . And it’s been critiqued for a long time by t…

“Proper education” is student, culture and even teacher dependent. There is no singular best practice. So many of the sit down, shut up models of education in other countries produce students which routinely trounce US students in math and science. At the same time, so does Finland.

My point above is that the belittling is a major part of the problem. You want to denigrate an entire profession, sure, but it has consequences, something we're seeing as experienced teachers leave the profession.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#217
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have tried sleeping earlier on times I'm sleep deprived, the only result is me staying in my bed for hours on end without sleeping. As a kid, as I mentioned in my original post, my parents would put me to bed with lights out around 9. I wasn't able to sleep despite being sleep deprived. Nowadays, I work in a different time zone and due to work and meetings, I sleep around 3am every day. I fall asleep instantly and…

I cannot relate to being sleepy, lying in bed at night, yet unable to sleep. That sounds like the definition of an insomnia disorder. It seems to me that for most of the population, sleeping when sleepy is not going to be an impossible ask. Much of the difficulty goes away when you avoid artificial light, like from phones, in the evenings. It's just that teens would prefer to be sleepy rather than go to bed early and…

When I was a teen, I didn't get much artificial light. There was no phones yet to ruin that since it was in the late 90s and iirc incandescent light bulbs do not emit as much of the problematic wavelength as modern lightbulbs. It was also light out in my bedroom between 9 and 9:30pm further reducing how much artificial light I got.

Nowadays, I'm extremely careful to use blue light filters in the evening, I use f.lux or equivalent on any devices I own (due to my work, I cannot avoid using those devices at night) and I make sure to choose appropriate lighting for my house.

It's not insomnia because if I go to sleep at 3am, I fall asleep instantly. When I go to sleep at that time and wake up every day around 10am, 11am (which I luckily can do because as an adult, I work remotely), I can be well rested, having a regular schedule and sleep very quickly. If it were insomnia, then the issue would exist

If, however, I try to go to sleep before midnight, even if I feel tired, I do not fall asleep. I'm pretty much the textbook definition of a night owl and pretty much an extreme one at that. It's not for lack of trying, because, when I first started working, I had to wake up early, had to try to go to sleep early and was unable to. It's been a significant handicap and it's why I had to find ways to get jobs that work with my schedule to improve my quality of life.

You might be right that teens have a tendency to want to push bedtime but there's also been plenty of studies that have shown that teens have better sleep when going to sleep late and waking up late. At this point, it's well established that people have different chronotype and a small minority are "night owls" to varying degrees.

Please read the research and don't make generalisations based on your own experience. I've been told before by acquaintances and family that not going to bed early and waking up early is unhealthy, lazy, name any negative adjectives you can think of. And yes, if I try hard, I can wake up early every weekday, it's just that I'll be exhausted by the end of the week, will need the weekend to recover and will have very poor quality of life.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#219
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have tried sleeping earlier on times I'm sleep deprived, the only result is me staying in my bed for hours on end without sleeping. As a kid, as I mentioned in my original post, my parents would put me to bed with lights out around 9. I wasn't able to sleep despite being sleep deprived. Nowadays, I work in a different time zone and due to work and meetings, I sleep around 3am every day. I fall asleep instantly and…

I cannot relate to being sleepy, lying in bed at night, yet unable to sleep. That sounds like the definition of an insomnia disorder. It seems to me that for most of the population, sleeping when sleepy is not going to be an impossible ask. Much of the difficulty goes away when you avoid artificial light, like from phones, in the evenings. It's just that teens would prefer to be sleepy rather than go to bed early and…

> Much of the difficulty goes away when you avoid artificial light, like from phones, in the evenings. It's just that teens would prefer to be sleepy rather than go to bed early and avoid phone

Ahh ok, this isn't medical research. It's the good old boomer rant that "phone bad".

I get it now.

Re: School closures led to more sleep and better quality of life for adolescents

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> before the industrial revolution, most people were farmers. Kids were out playing, stayed home safe or participated to gardening activities. Ah yes, the good old times where nobody could read or write and your only perspective in life was to be a farmer like your father and his father before him!

I've cared sharing your comment with two farmers, they appear to be able to read so their response may not be representative of the audience you had in mind: Be a farmer just one day and you will change your mind. I think it's wise advice as it wouldn't take long rethoric for some truth to reveal itself, and surely would be a valuable experience.

I don't think anyone would call modern farmers illiterate - did you miss the "before the industrial revolution" bit?
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