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T-Shaped People and Academia

bastian.rieck.me

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Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#111

Post by throwawaygh »

Topolomancer wrote: post #45
lmeyerov wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on the other end of such reviewers. Building community and engaging in it takes a whole ton of seemingly non-core work, but community-of-practice research is totally a thing, and for folks who empirically study innovation, one of the best approaches in practice. Likewise, it's common wisdom by systems researchers to invest in platform early to get compounding results later. Two of my best projects, include…

Author here---I love the term 'non-core work.' It encompasses a lot of the things that irk me in academia (and it's a little bit hypocritical because in the end, academic projects also benefit quite a lot from this non-core work...at least, if your goal is to build something that people actually want to use, as opposed to just pushing out papers.) PS: And upon writing this comment, I had the epiphany that 'pushing ou…

> academic projects also benefit quite a lot from this non-core work

Yes, of course they do. The whole point is that this type of labor is valuable.

> if your goal is to build something that people actually want to use, as opposed to just pushing out papers.

Neither of those things is the purpose of a phd...

If a student's goal is to build something that people actually want to use, they are much better served by taking an industry position in a product group.

> pushing out papers

From my perspective, the obsession with publishing is just another version of the same problem.

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#112

Post by Topolomancer »

rambambram wrote: post #53

On one hand all these PhD thingies are very very important, and on the other hand words like "assets" and "commodities" are used for these same PhD people.

Author here---I mean the term 'asset' in a positive way, but I am also not a native English speaker, so maybe something gets lost in translation. Sorry about that!

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#113

Post by Topolomancer »

ModernMech wrote: post #103
throwawayarnty wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite term they use in academia is "trainee" to justify low salaries. Trainees encompass High School Students, Undergraduates, to Postdocs, an age range from maybe 18 to 38.

To be clear, students are paid stipends, not salaries. Stipends are low because they are stipends.

Depends on the system. In EU, these are often salaried positions as well.

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#114

Post by Topolomancer »

throwawayarnty wrote: post #92
rambambram wrote: post #53

On one hand all these PhD thingies are very very important, and on the other hand words like "assets" and "commodities" are used for these same PhD people.

My favorite term they use in academia is "trainee" to justify low salaries. Trainees encompass High School Students, Undergraduates, to Postdocs, an age range from maybe 18 to 38.

Author here. Yeah, I am also still a trainee or an 'early career research' or a 'junior researcher.' These terms are...weird.

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#115

Post by Topolomancer »

throwawaygh wrote: post #111
Topolomancer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here---I love the term 'non-core work.' It encompasses a lot of the things that irk me in academia (and it's a little bit hypocritical because in the end, academic projects also benefit quite a lot from this non-core work...at least, if your goal is to build something that people actually want to use, as opposed to just pushing out papers.) PS: And upon writing this comment, I had the epiphany that 'pushing ou…

> academic projects also benefit quite a lot from this non-core work Yes, of course they do. The whole point is that this type of labor is valuable. > if your goal is to build something that people actually want to use, as opposed to just pushing out papers. Neither of those things is the purpose of a phd... If a student's goal is to build something that people actually want to use, they are much better served by tak…

> If a student's goal is to build something that people actually want to use, they are much better served by taking an industry position in a product group.

Agreed, I should have phrased that better. Fundamentally, the focus should be on 'generating new knowledge,' right?

> From my perspective, the obsession with publishing is just another version of the same problem.

Yes. :(

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#116

Post by auxym »

mehrdada wrote: post #43
xmprt wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone just wants a visa, then it's much easier to get a quick and easy masters instead of doing a PhD with 5 years of research.

Maybe--very much depends on the source and destination country. Fact on the ground is lots of people have ended up choosing that as their path, optimal or not. You can master-out in the middle of a PhD program, which is frowned upon, but it is difficult to get funding if you directly apply for a masters degree. Perhaps the solution is to decrease the negative cultural backlash against predisposed intention of leaving…

In Canada, research masters are a prereq for entering a PhD program.

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#117

Post by williamstein »

Topolomancer wrote: post #99
williamstein wrote: post #96

The original post says the following, with italics and explanation points: "Coming from mathematics, where one paper every few years (!) is considered the mark of a productive mathematician,". I spent decades in academic pure mathematics, and I've been on many hiring committees, and that assertion doesn't match my experience. Also, look at the original poster's own publication list at https://bastian.rieck.me/researc…

Author here---I am not exactly doing mathematics research any more, but have shifted to CS/ML. It was my impression that the pace in that field is a little faster than in pure mathematics (whether that's a good thing or not is debatable). Please let me know whether I misunderstood this.

There is some discussion with vague data here [1]; their estimate of "1-2 papers/year is pretty typical" sounds about right to me. That's significantly more than "one every several years", but perhaps a lot less than might be common in your area. On the other hand, if you were to normalize paper count by number of authors, then maybe my observation does agree with yours.

[1] https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/122426/how-many...

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#118

Post by oogali »

periheli0n wrote: post #81
Topolomancer wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only partially agree with you there---as a PI, I also have an option to reward these sort of activities. I understand that it is not a good idea to employ someone for the wrong role, so any 'non-core work' activities need to be at least discussed with respect to potential ramifications. However, I find it somehow weird that we only ever measure success along one axis. Moreover, these students often serve as facilit…

> as a PI, I also have an option to reward these sort of activities. But honestly, your options are very limited, especially in Germany. You cannot pay them more, and you also cannot offer them a permanent employment contract. Most of the time it’s even hard to extend an existing contract. You can perhaps send them to nice conferences, but then you would send the principal author to the conference, too. But I totally…

> But I totally agree that academia fails at rewarding people who facilitate the work of others. There is some perversion to this, since the key part of academia is precisely to spread and exchange knowledge.

What you’re describing is glue work[1].

Until recently, glue work tended to be invisible and unappreciated across a good majority of the industry. While it’s starting to get visibility, there still isn’t consensus on how to recognize it and/or reward it.

1: https://noidea.dog/glue

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#119

Post by Topolomancer »

williamstein wrote: post #117
Topolomancer wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here---I am not exactly doing mathematics research any more, but have shifted to CS/ML. It was my impression that the pace in that field is a little faster than in pure mathematics (whether that's a good thing or not is debatable). Please let me know whether I misunderstood this.

There is some discussion with vague data here [1]; their estimate of "1-2 papers/year is pretty typical" sounds about right to me. That's significantly more than "one every several years", but perhaps a lot less than might be common in your area. On the other hand, if you were to normalize paper count by number of authors, then maybe my observation does agree with yours. [1] https://academia.stackexchange.com/questio…

Thanks, that's interesting! I had the impression that it was lower, but I must admit I lack experience in the publishing practices of pure mathematics.

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#120

Post by ModernMech »

throwawaygh wrote: post #106
ModernMech wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it’s in vogue to claim that grad students have shit benefits because they are paid terribly, but I do have to push back on that. For one, the main benefit of a funded Ph.D. is that you don’t pay tuition. That’s a huge benefit that can total $40k or more per year before candidacy. Secondly, you (should) get to travel and present your research around the world for free. During my Ph.D. I got to present our work…

> That’s a huge benefit that can total $40k or more per year before candidacy. No one does a phd for the coursework :) > travel This is worth perhaps $2K-$4K. Your industry friends could easily travel the world, and they wouldn't be stuck in a conference hotel for half their trip. > FICA taxes No! This isn't a good thing!!! The employer pays half of these, and paying them entitles you to the US social safety net! Uni…

> No one does a phd for the coursework :)

Tuition also entitles you to access library resources, university software, campus gyms, sports facilities, child care, and university provided health services. I think your emoticon is implying your statement is tongue in cheek, but I mean.... they absolutely do though. If you don't consider taking courses a benefit to doing a Ph.D. then yeah, the value proposition of a Ph.D. program is quite lopsided. Tax-free tuition is an amazing benefit from my perspective.

> Your industry friends could easily travel the world, and they wouldn't be stuck in a conference hotel for half their trip.

You say stuck at a conference hotel, but I love conferences. They are so much fun and I always learn so much and meet amazing people. Moreover, what I said was "travel and present research". Not many employees who have been working for 1-2 years out of college get to present their work in front of an audience of peers and experts. It's great exposure and an amazing way to make connections and start building a career. My friends in industry were never given opportunities like that.

> paying them entitles you to the US social safety net!

I mean, you start paying into them soon enough -- I'm not really worried about my social security payout when I retire because I didn't pay into FICA when I was 24. The benefit of not paying FICA is that $30k goes further now when you need it. With Obamacare, healthcare isn't much of an issue anymore for grad students, and we got cheap/free healthcare at the university health services.

Look, all I'm saying is that when you say "$30k with marginal benefits" it makes it sound like a grad student is being compensated as a fast food employee. It's more like: $30k, and there are all kinds of benefits which may or may not appeal to you as an individual. If you want to make a ton of money go into industry. If you want a different experience do a Ph.D. You will (should!) come out of it with an education and a lot of open doors, some of which are permanently locked or vastly harder to open without the Ph.D. degree.

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