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Japan’s Vaccination Policy: No Force, No Discrimination

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Re: Japan’s Vaccination Policy: No Force, No Discrimination

#41

Post by echelon »

yesdocs wrote: post #35
echelon wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's supposed to work in America, one of the freest countries in the world that prides itself in personal liberty. After all, it's a country where anyone can say just about anything and also carry a gun. (If we fix our stance on drugs, stop interfering with women's rights, and get our policing in check, we'll be pretty much on track for being a perfect place for the individualist.) The far left and far right are both…

This ‘two-siding’ approach is exactly what the media does and normalizes radical actions as a ruse for freedom. But there is no equivalent, one side is on the side of public health, the other is promoting practices that put people in danger under the disguise of freedoms. History will not treat those who forgo science kindly. To claim we are to stop hating implies the left must forgo science to appease the radical ri…

That's not my point. By treating them as "the other side", we've closed their ears to our message. I can't help but think that a different strategy would have left far fewer dead.

We're not just winning for science. We're winning for people. Their thoughts, minds, intentions, and health. The long term direction for this country. There's a meta game, and the far left and far right are both ruining it.

Re: Japan’s Vaccination Policy: No Force, No Discrimination

#43

Post by upsidesinclude »

raverbashing wrote: post #37
teraku wrote: post #2

> Other nations would do well to follow Japan’s lead [...]. This policy appropriately places the responsibility for this healthcare decision with the individual or family. I'm sorry, no. This only works in countries like Japan.

I agree How many people in Japan voluntarily used masks before Covid again? How many cases of people protesting the use of them in Japan has there been? Personal responsibility works well in countries where people don't think a virus has a political leaning and where people have a modicum of consideration for their fellow citizens.

No post body was provided.

Re: Japan’s Vaccination Policy: No Force, No Discrimination

#44

Post by malermeister »

kodah wrote: post #36
malermeister wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Far-left liberal" is an oxymoron. Liberalism is an economically right-wing, pro-capitalist ideology (this part is incompatible with leftism!), that is socially liberal (this part isn't). In the US, due to the two-party system, liberals and leftists are forced to share a party, but that doesn't mean they want the same things.

If someone says "far left" or "far right" in America I usually interpret them talking about political culture rather than policy.

I understand that and as a leftist I find it unfortunate that my label is being used to describe people that believe in things I oppose, hence the correction.

Re: Japan’s Vaccination Policy: No Force, No Discrimination

#45

Post by upsidesinclude »

echelon wrote: post #5
teraku wrote: post #2

> Other nations would do well to follow Japan’s lead [...]. This policy appropriately places the responsibility for this healthcare decision with the individual or family. I'm sorry, no. This only works in countries like Japan.

It's supposed to work in America, one of the freest countries in the world that prides itself in personal liberty. After all, it's a country where anyone can say just about anything and also carry a gun. (If we fix our stance on drugs, stop interfering with women's rights, and get our policing in check, we'll be pretty much on track for being a perfect place for the individualist.) The far left and far right are both…

You have really met the essence of this issue. There's aspects of conforming that will be long lasting and change the way politicians wield the federal bureaucracy. It is immensely important to keep perspective on the long term. Consider the impact of forcing the skeptical out of the military and from almost all federal positions. That is what we have just accomplished. No not 'skeptics', but skeptical people who will challenge a directive. People who believe that, possibly, an order might be unlawful even if it comes from a superior.

Re: Japan’s Vaccination Policy: No Force, No Discrimination

#46

Post by ttscar »

To give you the daily dose of disillusion:

China didn't mandate vaccine, neither. (I know you have read many English articles from the legacy media, just wait...)

Try Google translate this page from the Central government official website: National Health Commission: The introduction of restrictive measures violates the principle of vaccination (http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2021-09/07/content_5636053.htm)

Re: Japan’s Vaccination Policy: No Force, No Discrimination

#47

Post by version_five »

clairity wrote: post #9

encouragement rather than mandates were, are, and will always always be better and more effective than the threat of force. it’s the most pro-social option as well as the most ethical, in direct contradiction of the cries of ‘selfishness’ emanating from the mediopolitical apparatus.

We rarely see this approach (and not just related to vaccines) because no power can be derived from it. Imagine what people at all levels and branches of government would be giving up if they let people just think for themselves

Re: Japan’s Vaccination Policy: No Force, No Discrimination

#48

Post by disambiguation »

Japan is a really interesting case in the course of the covid saga, and you have to look at the pre-vaccine numbers to see why.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53188847

July 2020

""" Many paragons of Covid strategy, such as New Zealand and Vietnam, used tough measures including closing borders, tight lockdowns, large-scale testing and strict quarantines - but Japan did none of that.

Yet, five months after the first Covid case was reported here, Japan has fewer than 20,000 confirmed cases and fewer than 1,000 deaths. The state of emergency has been lifted, and life is rapidly returning to normal.

But there is no doubt that many Japanese, and some scientists, think there is something about Japan that is different - a so called "Factor X" that is protecting the population from Covid-19.

Tokyo University professor Tatsuhiko Kodama - who studies how Japanese patients react to the virus - believes Japan may have had Covid before. Not Covid-19, but something similar that could have left behind "historical immunity".

He thinks it is possible a Sars-like virus has circulated in the region before, which may account for the low death rate, not just in Japan, but in much of China, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and South East Asia. """

Re: Japan’s Vaccination Policy: No Force, No Discrimination

#49

Post by yesdocs »

echelon wrote: post #41
yesdocs wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This ‘two-siding’ approach is exactly what the media does and normalizes radical actions as a ruse for freedom. But there is no equivalent, one side is on the side of public health, the other is promoting practices that put people in danger under the disguise of freedoms. History will not treat those who forgo science kindly. To claim we are to stop hating implies the left must forgo science to appease the radical ri…

That's not my point. By treating them as "the other side", we've closed their ears to our message. I can't help but think that a different strategy would have left far fewer dead. We're not just winning for science. We're winning for people. Their thoughts, minds, intentions, and health. The long term direction for this country. There's a meta game, and the far left and far right are both ruining it.

There is no ‘coming together’ with the denial of facts. The ‘left’ did not create ‘sides’. I believe the leaders on the ‘right’ created a public health crisis by fanning the flames of anti-science to fill their donation coffers and put people at risk. There definitely could have been more lives saved, and it’s not by denying facts but by accepting facts as facts and not demonizing our public health officials such as Dr Fauci. The ‘right’ is clearly in the wrong (as our hospitals are filled now with the unvaccinated) and bending our policies to make the stupid happy is not only inhumane, but not a rationale approach in governance. The approach should be to attack the misinformation, ban and penalize public voices that advocate mistruths, and remove funds from public officials using misinformation to fill their coffers. As the ‘right’ loved to portray: Facts don’t care about your feelings

Re: Japan’s Vaccination Policy: No Force, No Discrimination

#50

Post by dotnet00 »

Nursie wrote: post #38
dotnet00 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's putting things pretty charitably for a society that pushes conformity to the point of it being fairly unhealthy. Japanese peoples' trust in govt for 2020 was actually less than that of the US's. Their vaccination rates are more likely due to their community-oriented culture rather than their trust in government officials. https://data.oecd.org/gga/trust-in-government.htm

Interesting... Thanks for that link, though I find it a little bit ambiguous that the measure is trust but the question asked is "In this country, do you have confidence in… national government?", which I think is slightly different to what I was alluding to which is trust in the motives of government. For instance I trust the motives of the health establishment in the UK, but I have considerably less confidence that…

Yes that does make sense.

Perhaps this is a slightly more useful analysis: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/20/tokyo-olymp...

They look at peoples' opinion on specifically covid related policy, although they still don't address how this relates to opinion on health outcomes. At the same time I'm not sure if useful conclusions on vaccine policy can be drawn from these stats. Largely because the above numbers are from right before the Olympics, which would have politicized covid policy the same way it has been politicized in the US. However, while that politicization would have ended with the Olympics, the US is still stuck in the stupidity of politicizing a disease.

Perhaps a key difference between the two is that we in the US have a problem where political affiliation seemingly trumps everything. A vaccine must be rushed and risky if a republican is in charge or it must be an attempt to take away basic freedoms if a democrat is in charge etc.

Maybe if we didn't have that issue, the so-called individualists would actually act like individualists and look at all the evidence for the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.

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