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Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

mrsteinberg.com

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Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#291

Post by germandiago »

DarylZero wrote: post #282
germandiago wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand your question. But my point is that things are not done by magic. Someone works on them, someone gets the material (if it is a product). Someone spends time. If a machine does it, someone created the machine (it is usually many people for a single industrial machine) and someone bought it. There is literally always, someone, at some point in time that paid with time and/or money to trade something…

> There is literally always, someone, at some point in time that paid with time and/or money to trade something. But how did the trade get started? Does it go back into an infinite past? An infinite series of trades, with neither an end, nor even beginning? Otherwise it would seem something must be free. Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatio_ex_nihilo

It has always existed. When men collected food and survived they shared. If there is an surplus of something you do not need, what do you do with it? Eventually, I guess, they started bartering. Bartering is a primitive way of trading. That trading is possible accumulating enough, otherwise you would need it all for yourself.

I do not think it is difficult to see the beginning of these patterns, they seem relatively natural to me: if I can plant a big field of potatoes and you can hunt well, we assess the cost of each activity and x kg of potatoes equal y kg of meat.

I think you are mixing the fact of something being free as in "no money involved" with the fact that time is "money" or that spending time doing something is also money: it is consuming time, which is also a kind of capital.

So you could pay in coins, in sheep, in yarn, with your time or in whatever. That is not important, it is still an exchange and equivalent to trading.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#292

Post by germandiago »

int_19h wrote: post #229
germandiago wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original reason for the embargo was because when the lands were expropiated the americans forbid to basically trade with cubans to not trade with stolen property due to the revolution. I tell you if you are not aware of the original reason. The original reason makes sense. I understand that normal people is who suffer. That is true and sad.

Given that pre-revolution Cuba was not exactly democratic either, and had insane concentration of wealth, it's arguable whether that stolen property can be considered legitimately owned in the first place. A government of robbers announcing that what they robbed is legitimately owned doesn't make it so. (The same, of course, applies to the post-revolution government - I'm not trying to claim that it's somehow better.…

Cuba in the 50s was the 3nd wealthies country in Hispanic America. I think it was after Argentina, not sure if Venezuela. Now it is in the poor side of things, and Hispanic America is not too wealthy...

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#293

Post by ThomasWinwood »

germandiago wrote: post #291
DarylZero wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is literally always, someone, at some point in time that paid with time and/or money to trade something. But how did the trade get started? Does it go back into an infinite past? An infinite series of trades, with neither an end, nor even beginning? Otherwise it would seem something must be free. Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatio_ex_nihilo

It has always existed. When men collected food and survived they shared. If there is an surplus of something you do not need, what do you do with it? Eventually, I guess, they started bartering. Bartering is a primitive way of trading. That trading is possible accumulating enough, otherwise you would need it all for yourself. I do not think it is difficult to see the beginning of these patterns, they seem relatively…

> It has always existed. When men collected food and survived they shared. If there is an surplus of something you do not need, what do you do with it? Eventually, I guess, they started bartering. Bartering is a primitive way of trading. That trading is possible accumulating enough, otherwise you would need it all for yourself.

This is Adam Smith's just-so story, but he was wrong - no society has ever been shown to survive on a barter economy. Anthropologists have shown that what existed before trade was the same as what exists today when trade collapses: informally held debt. Alice knows how to work leather, Bob knows how to work wood; Bob needs a pair of shoes; Alice gives Bob a pair of shoes to satisfy his need and both Alice and Bob remember that; later, when Alice's house needs repairs she knows whose shoulder to tap on.

This is "barter" in the sense that Alice's and Bob's services have been transacted through time, but you'd be moving the goalposts since you just defined barter as Alice and Bob sitting down and determining precisely how much wood-labour equates to a fixed quantity of leather-labour at the point of purchase.

If you'd like to learn more, then David Graeber's book Debt: The First 5,000 Years, is something of a standard reference on the subject. It's on the Internet Archive.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#294

Post by DarylZero »

germandiago wrote: post #291
DarylZero wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is literally always, someone, at some point in time that paid with time and/or money to trade something. But how did the trade get started? Does it go back into an infinite past? An infinite series of trades, with neither an end, nor even beginning? Otherwise it would seem something must be free. Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatio_ex_nihilo

It has always existed. When men collected food and survived they shared. If there is an surplus of something you do not need, what do you do with it? Eventually, I guess, they started bartering. Bartering is a primitive way of trading. That trading is possible accumulating enough, otherwise you would need it all for yourself. I do not think it is difficult to see the beginning of these patterns, they seem relatively…

> So you could pay in coins, in sheep, in yarn, with your time or in whatever. That is not important, it is still an exchange and equivalent to trading.

But how do coins, sheep, yarn, or whatever, originally come to be? If nothing is free, there must be an infinite chain of trade, leading back to an infinite past. But cosmology and evolution suggest otherwise.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#295

Post by camdat »

908B64B197 wrote: post #288
perl4ever wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the connection between Cuba and "Excess mortality in Wuhan city and other parts of China during the three months of the covid-19 outbreak: findings from nationwide mortality registries"? Are you saying that since we know that Chinese statistics are accurate, Cuban statistics must also be?

I don't think there's a connection. I think we might have tripped up some keyword and got a copy-pasted response. Posting history suggest that poster references this study pretty frequently.

I've referenced the study twice in about 50 comments, and only in the past 2 days. Not exactly frequently, and I even acknowledge I'm reposting it in the OP.

Incredibly disingenuous to assume everyone that disagrees with you (and with factual data noless) is a bot/shill

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#296

Post by 908B64B197 »

camdat wrote: post #295
908B64B197 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's a connection. I think we might have tripped up some keyword and got a copy-pasted response. Posting history suggest that poster references this study pretty frequently.

I've referenced the study twice in about 50 comments, and only in the past 2 days. Not exactly frequently, and I even acknowledge I'm reposting it in the OP. Incredibly disingenuous to assume everyone that disagrees with you (and with factual data noless) is a bot/shill

> factual data

Nothing about Cuba, so nothing factual here.

Wuhan had a lot of international observer since it was the birthplace of the pandemic (and China had to save face and show it was in control).

I would be curious to see similar credible data for Cuba.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#297

Post by camdat »

908B64B197 wrote: post #296
camdat wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've referenced the study twice in about 50 comments, and only in the past 2 days. Not exactly frequently, and I even acknowledge I'm reposting it in the OP. Incredibly disingenuous to assume everyone that disagrees with you (and with factual data noless) is a bot/shill

> factual data Nothing about Cuba, so nothing factual here. Wuhan had a lot of international observer since it was the birthplace of the pandemic (and China had to save face and show it was in control). I would be curious to see similar credible data for Cuba.

What do you think the word factual means?

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#298

Post by perl4ever »

sudosysgen wrote: post #223
perl4ever wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the connection between Cuba and "Excess mortality in Wuhan city and other parts of China during the three months of the covid-19 outbreak: findings from nationwide mortality registries"? Are you saying that since we know that Chinese statistics are accurate, Cuban statistics must also be?

The original argument is that the "communist strategy" for handling the pandemic doesn't work and that they are faking the statistics. Beyond that, given the fact that both of them used very similar tactics, we would expect similar results.

If nobody even cares in the first place which country's statistics they are talking about...what is "faking the statistics"?

People. Don't. Click. On. Links.

And if they do, they sure don't read them.

I can't be bothered to read a study promoted by someone who has shown no evidence at all of reading it yet.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#299

Post by perl4ever »

camdat wrote: post #297
908B64B197 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> factual data Nothing about Cuba, so nothing factual here. Wuhan had a lot of international observer since it was the birthplace of the pandemic (and China had to save face and show it was in control). I would be curious to see similar credible data for Cuba.

What do you think the word factual means?

It appears to be a study about Wuhan, in China.

Where is the factual data about Cuba in this study?

Assuming you've read it, and you know where it is, please give people a hint.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#300

Post by camdat »

perl4ever wrote: post #298
sudosysgen wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original argument is that the "communist strategy" for handling the pandemic doesn't work and that they are faking the statistics. Beyond that, given the fact that both of them used very similar tactics, we would expect similar results.

If nobody even cares in the first place which country's statistics they are talking about...what is "faking the statistics"? People. Don't. Click. On. Links. And if they do, they sure don't read them. I can't be bothered to read a study promoted by someone who has shown no evidence at all of reading it yet.

I posted this study to show that it's likely "communist" countries are not lying about their COVID numbers. I assumed my use of the word "these" would have made that obvious, but given these responses it seems not.

I have read the study hence why I posted it (couldn't find a study of similar rigor for Cuba specifically). This study sufficiently shows the point I'm trying to make.

To say I didn't read the link to a study I posted is a bit rude no?

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