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Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

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Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#191

Post by antman »

PaulAJ wrote: post #70
prmoustache wrote: post #20

I cringe every time I hear the US president being described as the leader of the free world, as if there were 2 specific sides and USA were leading it and as if USA was an advocate for freedom.

Up until 1990 that was a reasonable approximation to the truth. The USA certainly had its issues, but in a comparison between the USA and the USSR there was no question about who the relatively good guys were. Since the USSR collapsed, and especially since 9/11, things have gotten a lot murkier.

I assume you are American? As resident of one of the dozens of countries that suffered US led coups our opinions differ. The US has influenced with undemocratic methods a lot more countries than the USSR even before the 90s. Just compare Europe and US sphere influence (Latin America and Africa) with USSR sphere of influence (Eastern Europe and Caucasian) Also look what happened Foreign interventions in the USSR sphere of influence for Freedom (Syria, Libya and Yugoslavia, Former USSR naval bases in the Mediterranean) those were rebellions against dictatorships. All the others are insurgencies against democracies.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#192

Post by UweSchmidt »

pydry wrote: post #74
cm2187 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Hollywood is lot less subtle now at trying to push political propaganda than it was ever then, except that wokeism is the theme of the day. In some instances it has completely taken over the plot, like in the last season of Fargo, to the point of becoming some sort of unwatcheable catechism.

There's an additional very blatant theme I've been seeing of "science and engineers are the coolest!" that cropped up in, e.g. The Tomorrow War and another recent military themed US movie whose name I forget. They made me wonder if the army is fretting about its access to STEM skills.

There might have been some improvements in this area but I still haven't seen any (male) IT guy in a movie who is not portrayed as some kind of weirdo and relegated to the side. Even female nerds are at the very best assisting the hero.

TV lawyers and doctors however get to hold jargon-filled monologues and be in lead roles.

/rant

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#193

Post by atq2119 »

foldr wrote: post #128
crate_barre wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/09/yemen-us-made... Raytheon lobbies for Mideast arm sales. In the hierarchy of shit they need to be ethical on, LGBTQ rights is not really top of the list. It’s nice though, nonetheless. No connection to Hollywood of course, Raytheon would love nothing more than war never being mentioned. The more they can sell outside of the US and not have anyone know it’s causing ge…

You're going off on a tangent here. By all means criticise Raytheon for the bad things they do. But why criticise their CEO for making a tweet supportive of gay rights? No evidence has been presented that the tweet is not sincere. HN all too often seems prone to spinning complex and sometimes borderline conspiratorial narratives around LGBTQ rights advocacy.

It's arguably not a tangent but simply a more holistic view.

Twitter is a lot of posturing, and the tweet is posturing "look how progressive/ethical/whatever I am". GP is simply pointing out that yes, supporting gay rights is a good thing, but the person overall is still a piece of shit for all the atrocities they implicitly support. The gay rights stance, even if genuine, simply can't balance that out.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#194

Post by cycomanic »

fsloth wrote: post #184
cycomanic wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> USA is an advocate of very specific stability. "Free world" is a hyperbolic but US is still a huge global power. > In cold war it was obvious there were two sides, and the other was obviously more free than the other. Go ask for example Estonians, Lithuanians or Latvians who they enjoyed the yoke of the USSR. You could also ask a Guatemalan how they enjoyed living under the US installed military dictatorships (whic…

Yes, that is absolutely right. Even Greece had it's anti-communist junta which massacred students. It's never clear cut, but on the _average_ I do think the pro-USSR side was less-free.

I would agree that for the (majority parts of) populations of the main countries that is likely the case. I certainly am happy to have grown up in Western not Eastern Germany. That said things get murkier beyond that quite quickly. I'm not sure I would have preferred to grow up as a black teenager in e.g. Baltimore over being a teenager in Eastern Germany and I certainly would have preferred to grow up in Estonia in the USSR over Guatemala.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#195

Post by scyzoryk_xyz »

PaulAJ wrote: post #70
prmoustache wrote: post #20

I cringe every time I hear the US president being described as the leader of the free world, as if there were 2 specific sides and USA were leading it and as if USA was an advocate for freedom.

Up until 1990 that was a reasonable approximation to the truth. The USA certainly had its issues, but in a comparison between the USA and the USSR there was no question about who the relatively good guys were. Since the USSR collapsed, and especially since 9/11, things have gotten a lot murkier.

The leader of a region of influence yes. “Good guy” “Free world” - relative on perspective and highly subjectively US POV

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#196

Post by foldr »

atq2119 wrote: post #193
foldr wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're going off on a tangent here. By all means criticise Raytheon for the bad things they do. But why criticise their CEO for making a tweet supportive of gay rights? No evidence has been presented that the tweet is not sincere. HN all too often seems prone to spinning complex and sometimes borderline conspiratorial narratives around LGBTQ rights advocacy.

It's arguably not a tangent but simply a more holistic view. Twitter is a lot of posturing, and the tweet is posturing "look how progressive/ethical/whatever I am". GP is simply pointing out that yes, supporting gay rights is a good thing, but the person overall is still a piece of shit for all the atrocities they implicitly support. The gay rights stance, even if genuine, simply can't balance that out.

Yes, of course it is possible to advocate for gay rights and yet also do bad things. Perhaps that was the OP's point, but it seems too obvious to be worth mentioning.

You may view the tweet as 'posturing', but we have seen no evidence that it is not the expression of a sincerely held belief. This is the sort of attitude that I was talking about when I said that HN seems to like to spin complex narratives around LGBTQ rights advocacy. Sometimes people speak out for LGBTQ rights because...they support LGBTQ rights. And that's all there is to it.

If you don't like other stuff that Raytheon does, then it makes a lot more sense to criticise them for doing that other stuff than it does to spin speculative narratives around the motivation behind their pro-LGBTQ tweets.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#197

Post by helsinkiandrew »

At the moment there seem to be many more (or at least many) 'anti' government movies around - those portraying the CIA and other organisations as corrupt, self serving or incompetent - the Bourne series etc.

Even "Eye in the Sky" gave me an overwhelming sense that the military use of drones was poorly managed and the decision making process was incompetent.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#198

Post by rambambram »

ArnoVW wrote: post #171

I bumped into this video about the making of 'Top Gun' the other day. Interesting in many ways. It shows the photographical choices and approaches that they used. The creative process and choices (and the vision and influence of Bruckenheimer).. and the way that the Navy had an influence. Example: the CO of the Miramar base (where it was shot) had a veto right on the script. He rejected because there was a romance be…

Also saw this recently. I always wondered how movies got access to military bases, jet fighters, and everything.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#199

Post by atq2119 »

aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #182
systemvoltage wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of good-vs-evil, do you also see WWII veterans and military history in the same light? They got into war that no one asked for. I cannot imagine if US and allies had lost WWII. It is simply unimaginable. Aside: I find the WWII era military training/propaganda videos pretty entertaining: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QgXuhv7-54

>It is simply unimaginable. WWII being the fight of good versus evil is the foundation myth of post-1945 western civilization. It is the central dogma of the western pseudo-religion, which prevents meaningful discussion of these matters.

Eh, I'd say the Holocaust makes a good argument in favour of it genuinely being a good vs evil thing. I mean, that certainly wasn't the only (or even main) motivation, but come on.

The actual myth is that the West is/was systematically engaged on the good side in good vs evil conflicts, when in reality WWII was more of an exception in that regard.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#200

Post by UweSchmidt »

pdimitar wrote: post #152

I hope this doesn't come as a surprise to anyone. At least for a lot of people outside the USA it was super obvious that the mainstream movies in the cinema are painting an overly optimistic picture of the US.

Propaganda probably still works even if you're aware what's going on.
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