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Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

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Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#101
post #63

Aside from military, this tactic became obvious to me when space became (again) a theater of conquest around 2010, involving both private and public sectors, internationally. The narrative around space became very strong, sending messages of conquest, entrepreneurship, science, dreams, you name it. At the exact same period, bloomed movies like: Mission to Mars, Gravity, Interstellar. I won't be surprised to see a sur…

While that's true, the fundamental missions in space that we are likely to fly are basically all about science and engineering. Even (I speculate) the classified ones. Satellites provide either telecommunications or fundamental information about our world or the universe in which it sits. That information is not going to beinherently military -- it's the purposes that it is put to that may be.

On the other have, every American action movie seems to feature guns and explosions and quite a lot of glorification of the military. The military exist to kill people, and to deliver the utmost brutality to others whilst remaining organised, logical and efficient themselves. Guns exist to kill things. Explosive munitions are fundamentally excellent at killing people from a surprisingly long way away, larger than what Hollywood shows. When was the last time you saw a film highlight the loss a family of a minor villain felt when the hero shot him? The true aftermath of an air strike in a foreign country -- lifelong resentment and hatred about the country that provided it? (Vietnam is an interesting place to visit, but don't mention B-52s to the locals). It is an unfortunate but unavoidable fact of humanity that armies are required to exist. There is definitely good that comes from them, ranging from humanitarian aid to the research into high end technology, and I'm not calling for their abolition -- I am not naïve. That is fundamentally why the glorification of the military at all costs is problematic. The ethical arguments for their existence require exploring.

American films, on the other hand, will quite happily show a commando killing hundreds or thousands of people in a teenager-friendly film, yet American culture decrees that showing a single naked person mandates that the film is restricted. That mindset -- boobs bad, guns good, explosions fun and exciting -- is slowly but surely exported across the globe.

I'm going to look forward to the sci-fi space films where the drama is survival in a hostile environment, and infinitely prefer them to war films.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#102

one graphic that stuck with me, that I saw a few years ago is this one ( https://imgur.com/svsB0Ub ) (question being: which nation, according to you, contributed most to the defeat of Germany?" Being German and having Russian relatives the perspective on the war on the continent has always been interesting to me. The sheer scale and brutality of the Eastern front, the war crimes and death (The Soviet Union lost more…

This is completely true, but I wouldn't forget the role of the US Lend-Lease Policy in this [1]. After the German attack, the SU wasn't really able to defend itself on the material side (same as the UK after the Dunkirk loss), and supplies were provided heavily by the US. > Roughly 17.5 million tons of military equipment, vehicles, industrial supplies, and food were shipped from the Western Hemisphere to the USSR, 94…

In addition to the other reply, if you want to bring up industry, Russian achievement on that front is actually even higher. Most of the industry was in the European part and soon unavailable because it was overrun by Germans. Russians moved entire factories far to the East and started

> German forces managed to occupy or isolate territory which prior to WWII accounted for over 60% of total coal, pig iron, and aluminum production. Nearly 40% of total grain production and 60% of total livestock was lost. Moreover, this area contained 40% Soviet population before the war, 32% of the state enterprise labor force, and one-third of the fixed capital assets of the state enterprise sector.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_industry_in_World_War_I...

Even with support from abroad, I don't see how this takes anything away from Russian war achievements.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#103
post #23
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can definitely notice when a Hollywood film has decided to suck up to the Chinese audience, such as with Pacific Rim 2 or Iron Man 3.

> suck up to the Chinese audience Less the Chinese audience and more the CCP State Censors.

And whichever organization selects which films get to be shown in China. Some films do much, much better in China than in the US thanks to this; some examples are the Transformers films, the Warhammer film, and someone else already mentioned Pacific Rim and Iron Man.

Basically, if there's a Chinese secondary actor and / or a Chinese location and they're not the definitive bad guys, it's been tweaked for and co-developed with China.

Now I don't say that's a bad thing per se, I kinda like there being a propaganda force in blockbuster films to compete with that of the US. I would much prefer no propaganda, but at the same time I feel like high budget action blockbusters can't do without.

Also take the word 'propaganda' with a grain of salt, it's usually nothing over the top, or limited to "this country or these people are not put in a bad light"

I for one would love to see more films where the Americans aren't considered the heroes.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#104

I cringe every time I hear the US president being described as the leader of the free world, as if there were 2 specific sides and USA were leading it and as if USA was an advocate for freedom.

USA is an advocate of very specific stability. "Free world" is a hyperbolic but US is still a huge global power.

In cold war it was obvious there were two sides, and the other was obviously more free than the other. Go ask for example Estonians, Lithuanians or Latvians who they enjoyed the yoke of the USSR.

Now, as China is becoming an ever more stronger player, we again see that there are two sides arising. While party lacks expansive ambitions in the traditional sense of landborders (except for Taiwan), they would very much like everyone to kotow to the party.

We are in a world where democracies are in decline and autocracies are in the rise. USA is still the biggest democracy. Leader of the free world? It's hyperbolic, but not _obviously totally wrong_.

This is not to say we are in some sort of manichean conflict world were one side is good and one is evil, or that US is good and the autocrats are evil. US is obviously a state actor that acts in it's own benefit and in the benefit of it's elites and so on, and these actions sometimes are very bad for civilians.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#105
See also this discussion on "The [erstwhile] Indianisation of China" by Hu Shih, a Chinese academic: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0009445514534119

> [Hu Shih] was among the first contributors for radical ideological change and modernity in China. His article on the 'Indianization of China' presented a scathing criticism of Indian influence on China that inhibited the blooming of 'indigenous modernity', progressivism and dynamism there. Hu’s views supported contemporary 'modernist' Chinese intellectuals' labelling of India under the British as a 'ruined' civilisation, 'failed' state or incapable role model for the agenda of modernity. Yet, he did not overlook affinities, mutual respect and admiration for those in India searching for 'indigenous roots' to modernity. His famous observation that 'India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border' is one of the most quoted sentences in any study of Sino-Indian encounters and connections.

Iranians and later Turkic Mongols had a similar affect (Persianisation) on India itself before imperialism took hold, and westernisation came to the fore; for ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaulayism

Dominant cultures have always sought influence.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#106
post #70

I cringe every time I hear the US president being described as the leader of the free world, as if there were 2 specific sides and USA were leading it and as if USA was an advocate for freedom.

Up until 1990 that was a reasonable approximation to the truth. The USA certainly had its issues, but in a comparison between the USA and the USSR there was no question about who the relatively good guys were. Since the USSR collapsed, and especially since 9/11, things have gotten a lot murkier.

> but in a comparison between the USA and the USSR

That's a false dichotomy if I ever seen one.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#107
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're quoting pretty selectively there. 11 billions went to the Soviet Union alone. The overall program was almost 50 billion. The reverse program of 7 billions is basically a calculatory sum of the lend and lease of military bases by the British Empire to the US. > suppy of aid (which the US can afford because of their capitalist practices of exploitation etc) That's a pretty wild statement considering how the Sovi…

Yeah sorry updated above, 11bln to USSR specifically, thanks for correcting. Nevertheless, it seemed odd to almost suggest the Us were financing the USSR in their fight in order to obtain some credit. Noted RE Soviet practices, though it's besides the point I think (i.e. it would be a scandal if the US didn't send aid in this form).

Yes, my argument wasn't so much that this was pure charity, but merely stating that the role of the US was a considerable factor in the fight of the SU.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#109
post #93

The propaganda effort shown in popular movies is just a small tip of the iceberg. The United States and its state-run propaganda and terrorism organisations cannot be allowed to walk through the 21st century without answering and making amends to the crimes committed. It has never before been more urgent to question and criticise the United States for its past decades of war, propaganda, sowing discord and effort to…

I think the main thing that gets people accused of being shills it using new accounts to send shrill calls to action

Yes, another convenient excuse and something to grasp for when all that matters is to discredit someone whose opinions they do not want to see in the debate.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#110

one graphic that stuck with me, that I saw a few years ago is this one ( https://imgur.com/svsB0Ub ) (question being: which nation, according to you, contributed most to the defeat of Germany?" Being German and having Russian relatives the perspective on the war on the continent has always been interesting to me. The sheer scale and brutality of the Eastern front, the war crimes and death (The Soviet Union lost more…

Try asking most people about the Vietnam War, then visit Vietnam, especially the war museum in Saigon. Then pay a visit to the Landmine museum outside of Siam Reap, in Cambodia, to learn about Nixon's secret war that carpeted the border between Cambodia and Vietnam with bombs and landmines without anyone knowing. That's a trip that would make you rethink America big time. It absolutely did for me. As an Italian, I wa…

The reason you can find a description of the atrocities committed by the US in Vietnam is that the US lost that war, and Vietnam today is functioning society. If you take the largely comparable Korean war, the non-US perspective is completely absent from the western public conscience. Though with a raising China, that may one day change.
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