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Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

mrsteinberg.com

141–150 of 328 posts

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#141

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Human behavior that works well on the scale of groups where everyone knows each other (like households, certain types of tribes, extended family "clan" structures, cooperatives or communes; perhaps kibbutzim in 1950s/60s are a relevant example), probably limited by Dumbar's number, does not scale in an equivalent way to large groups where almost noone knows each other. We homo sapiens simply don't treat strangers in…

nobody is trying to scale the communal model with more communalism though - it scales with delegates and democracy and whatnot. My town sends a delegate to your town's delegate to discuss where we can mutually support each other. Maybe our elected delegates form regional councils for more regular or coordinated cooperation. It's all good stuff and is basically how democracy /should/ work. In reality, your local rep d…

Well, that's the thing that it does not scale with delegates in a hierarchical way.

A community of a hundred humans will have emotional ties that allow them to cooperate in a way that a community of a hundred sub-communities and their delegates simply does not.

If your delegates emotionally treat the other delegates as "their community" then you get essentially a bureaucrat/administrator class that exploits the communities for their own gain and results in the usual scenario a reality where your local rep doesn't mean anything. The observed dynamics in the early Soviet structure is relevant, where smaller soviets/worker councils were sending their delegates to larger soviets of soviets and so on in multiple levels, which had your exact plans and expectations, but quickly started to get poor results as these representatives (the process of which continued pretty much forever) become less relevant, and got effectively turned into an 'apparatchik' class for the opposite top-down control - which quite well matched the incentives of these individual representatives, who formed a "community" with their fellow representatives and generally benefited from the structure.

And if your delegates are actually faithful to their communities and properly represent for their interests, then (in the absence of some authority forcing communities to do things) the relationships between the communities become effectively a market economy, based on objective trade instead of altruistic cooperation (they agree to win-win cooperation, but disagree on any extensive resource transfers from richer communities to poorer ones, caring about their community and ensuring their advantage) and the large scale economy of the country effectively becomes equivalent to free market only with the basic participants in the economy being slightly larger, not households but these communities - this is also a historical observation of how the relations between kibbutz communities turned out.

There is no "maybe" that you suggest, these things have been tried out, we know the results, and (sadly!) your expectations do not match what happens. I fully agree with your "should", in a perfect world it really should work, but in the one we live in it does not. Perhaps it would work with some post-homo-sapiens which are better than us, but that would be a substantial change in fundamental behavior and response to incentives which IMHO can't happen with purely cultural or social change, it would require change in us as a species.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not unfortunate, it's built in. "Communal ownership" requires that you can't freely buy and sell things. A government powerful enough to enforce that is necessarily totalitarian.

This is not true though. Communism isn't about communal ownership of all things, it's specifically about ownership of the means of production . Communism doesn't preclude ownership of personal property. You can still own your toothbrush under communist philosophy. However what you can't own is the steel plant. You can't own the roads. You can't own the Internet. You can't own the school system. You can't own the heal…

Does that imply that people who produce things with their minds e.g. mathematicians, would therefore need to be “owned” by the government?

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#143

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Yeah, state socialism doesn't work, that much is exceedingly obvious. That doesn't mean that we should just give up and accept capitalism as "the best we can do" as a species. It's just clear that authoritarian means are funnily enough not the route to a less authoritarian future.

People forget that there are many axes of the political compass. I think political scholars count over a dozen. Who knows how many there are, but it's definitely not a simple linear left/right dichotomy. One other important axis in this context is the authoritarian/democratic dichotomy. We know that the left/authoritarian (Soviets) quadrant of this space doesn't work, just as we know the right/authoritarian (Nazis) q…

Ideals cannot be mapped to numerical axes. At least in present day, it's impossible to for the left/democratic quadrant to exist. If you want to limit seize the means of production from the likes of Elon Musk, you need a position more powerful than him. Guess where the next Elon Musk is end up in such a system? With the absence of monetary capital, greedy people seek to maximize political capital instead, creating corruption. This happens after every attempt of socialism. Democracy has only existed with a healthy private sector that keeps profit seekers out of public service. Even someone like Mitch McConnell has some interest in public service.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#144
post #120
post #109

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Serious question, not trying to start a debate. How does abject poverty in an openly communist country make you think about the "deep impact of consumerism?"

I'm not @darkwater but I will use this question to try to put my thoughts together a bit. So, on my first week it was hard. I was working in very central London and I had access to peak consumers options. I like it, I was used to have anything that crossed my mind being readily accessible for me. Except for shorts that week, apparently. My order from Amazon did not arrive and I was trusting Amazon enough to skip goin…

You paint a good picture of Cuba, but what is life as a jaded resident of The City like?

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#145

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And it will be like this until the end of the days.

So you claim to know what's going to happen till the end of days?

For this concrete thing, yes. It is like math. There is a correlation between the level of intervention and the possibility of a tiranny that is very clear.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#146

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Did they prefer USSR to DPRK?

I wouldn't be surprised if they did. The post-Stalin Soviet Union would be a much freer place than North Korea. Here's a couple of quotes from Andrei Lankov's* book "Essays on Daily Life in North Korea" on how Soviets viewed North Korea: "When I arrived in North Korea for the first time on a sunny day in September 1984, I felt perplexed. I came to study at the Kim 11 Sung University, as a participant in an exchange p…

This was exactly the kind of context I was missing. Thanks for this.

I remember some high-profile expats immigrating to China in the 1950s and 60s, and writing about their experiences publicly to acclaim and disdain. Do you know if any of these are critically well-received?

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#147

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I wrote a comment and then thought "I should really look up where the term consumerism comes from". Because I didn't know and maybe I should. I spent half my life unaware of the origin of "capitalism". In the early 20th century, "consumerism" was supposedly used to mean something like "consumer protection". But in the mid 20th century, it was apparently adopted as a preferred term to "capitalism" in order to contrast…

BTW, some misconception here that I see so often: capitalism is not consuming a lot or too wildly. In fact, capitalism is not possible without saving, literally. In order to raise our lives level there were previous savings that were reinvested in process improvement, which eventually kept raising our life standards. Capitalism is exactly about that: same product at better price or higher quality products. We humans…

Indeed, the rampant consumerism of our current day is powered by government, not capitalism. The US government actively promotes consumption through tax policy, monetary polity, and spending policy.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#148
post #67

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Quoted post unavailable.

> A list of socialist or communist governments now: > [...] Argentina [...] No. Source: I live in Argentina and it's neither socialist nor communist. It's currently center-left capitalist. Our immediately preceding government was center-right capitalist. In the 70s we had far-right capitalist military dictatorship (Chicago boys influenced economy wise, School of the Americas trained).

Argentina is almost socialist in taxing terms. And 21 million of people are subsidized. I do not see a capitalist system subsidizing 21 million people. That is not capitalism. Call it something else.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not unfortunate, it's built in. "Communal ownership" requires that you can't freely buy and sell things. A government powerful enough to enforce that is necessarily totalitarian.

Or, it requires a community that shares things - like tribes or... Communes. I don't engage in negotiations with my wife or my friends, we cooperate. Maybe I could cooperate with other workers and form some kind of... Cooperative. There's a reason "socialism" starts with "social".

> Maybe I could cooperate with other workers and form some kind of... Cooperative.

Free markets allow people to organize the way they like. Other systems don't.

Cooperatives are cool and I have nothing against them but there's a reason for them being so few. They go bankrupt more often than other business.

> I don't engage in negotiations with my wife or my friends, we cooperate

Me neither but trust isn't scalable. On a large ethnically and culturally diverse population it's impossible to have trust.

It's good to have choice. Engaging in negotiations can be boring but it's preferred over the tragedy of the commons or attempts social control that always end up being an euphemism for privileges for friends or authoritarian policy.

Re: Tips to grow your North Korean Startup

#150

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When I was there, some Cubans offered us a lobster meal. Some fisherman had brought them in, and of course they knew the tourists could pay for it. So since this seemed to be illegal, they arranged for us to drive to their house, and then immediately boarded up the garage so our car wasn't visible from the street. Inside we got the lobsters as promised, maybe the only good food we had apart from the resorts. It came…

And what you are describing is part of the misery they are condemned to by the regime. They cannot trade normally, everything is treated as trafficking and the hihger layer has privileges, control and are corrupted and live from spoiling the rest. You want to do something by yourself? Brive me, because it is illegal or you will have trouble. And anyway, if I want, you can have trouble any day, because you did somethi…

Crazy what a blockade by the worlds largest economy 90 miles away for decades can do huh?
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