Earlier quoted context omitted.
> How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place Pay people to get sterilized. Right now our current welfare system encourages homeless women to have children - since they are immediately granted public housing. Offering homeless men $5,000 and women $10,000 for vasectomies and tube tying will save a fortune in welfare costs and end the cycle of poverty.
This comment has to be one of the most vile things I have read in a long time. Even surpasses the hermaincain and coronavirus subreddits in horrific commentary. You think homeless people only come from other homeless people? Even if this is just a bot or troll account. If anyone reading this actually has this thoughtprocess as a solution. Please, volounteer. Soup kitchen for example. The homeless are not a substandar…
The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief
61–70 of 71 posts
Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Have you talked to homeless people? Yes. And as a child I experienced homelessness on multiple occasions, though for all my mother's failings (alcoholism, poor choices in relationships) we never had to sleep rough. And in those types of social circles you also tend to meet all kinds of people, including people who regularly experienced homelessness (some occasionally by choice, if you call choosing alcohol or drugs…
Be that as it may, the median home in Oakland is $749,000. That's far in excess of what an average person can be able to afford, let alone someone who is struggling with mental illness. --------- That's why I'm saying the first step here is to make $50,000-ish housing units as a first step. It doesn't matter if they're low-end high-density condos or trailer parks, you need something cheap to solve the problem of home…
But we (San Francisco, Oakland, etc) can't build ourselves out of the homeless problem. Our problems and their causes are multifaceted. In 2004 Mayor Newsom committed San Francisco to that very solution with a 10-year plan, and by 2014 it had acquired or built a long-term residence for every chronically homeless person in 2004. Approximately 3,000 units for 3,000 people. See https://sfmayor.org/sites/default/files/FileCenter/Documents... Chronic homelessness was near a nadir. However, over the next several years homelessness exploded even though in terms of economic inhospitableness nothing had appreciably changed since 2014.
As a child we moved all over the place, town to town, state to state, chasing better jobs and cheaper living, with varying degrees of success. Poor people, even with empty pockets, are resourceful and somehow manage to get around. Some are better at it than others. This phenomenon is especially stark in accounts of genocide, where some people are seemingly unable to fathom relocating even when they have the economic and physical means and despite knowing their death is imminent. But the operative word is some; some can't, but some can. (Neither the poor nor even the homeless are a homogenous group, and much is lost in our--including my own--reductive aggregations.) It would be patently inhumane and unreasonable to pick any homeless person on the street and demand that they move away. On the other hand, policies that assume as a general matter that the poor or homeless can't, won't, or shouldn't relocate in search of better opportunities or conditions are sorely misguided, not to mention doomed to failure when adhered to at such a local level.
Moreover, from a purely accounting perspective, neither San Francisco nor Oakland have the resources to mitigate all the economic pressures for housing. For definitions of "affordable" bandied about by many on the far left, if you crunch the numbers (e.g. $500k per unit, which is somewhat conservative) San Francisco would need to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to build enough subsidized housing, and that's if the situation remained static. That's not remotely realistic even though the City of San Francisco already enjoys the highest revenue per capita of any major American city. To think Oakland, a far less wealthy city, could merely build its way out of the current problem using public funds and without displacing anybody is even less realistic, to say the least.
Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't get it — I'm not motivated by property values. I'm motivated by 1.) the massive waste of taxpayer dollars that could go elsewhere, and 2.) my compassion for people who really need help, not just a room. San Francisco spends over $100,000 per homeless individual, per year. It is ridiculous that I kept seeing the same faces doing the same things for years , and of course their population has grown and continu…
Have you read anything about Denver's housing-first program? I haven't taken the time to read up on it, but the popular narrative around here is that it's been successful enough to be worth expanding.
That said, I imagine there would be some significant differences simply due to the weather. Also, the metrics for "success" sometimes seem questionable. Example: percentage of residents still in the same residence a year later. Aren't we trying to help them progress out of the lot they're in and towards returning to a productive member of society? Stagnating in a room just means they're dying slower, not becoming better.
What I've seen firsthand is 'street people' moving from a tent or the like into an SRO, but continuing with their addictions, criminal behavior (often to sustain said addictions), etc. I've even seen people whom I know have a room in an SRO on 6th street (SF) produce bodily waste in an alley because they didn't feel like going back inside. I would think a better metric would be the percentage who move from a housing-first program into transitional housing, or rehab, or find employment, or some other indicia we're doing something other than giving them a roof and calling it a day.
Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Be that as it may, the median home in Oakland is $749,000. That's far in excess of what an average person can be able to afford, let alone someone who is struggling with mental illness. --------- That's why I'm saying the first step here is to make $50,000-ish housing units as a first step. It doesn't matter if they're low-end high-density condos or trailer parks, you need something cheap to solve the problem of home…
We absolutely need to build more subsidized housing. And I support those policies, including many of the perennial bond measures. I do so out of earnestness and the hope that the next bond measure will placate the various NIMBY factions on the Board of Supervisors. They disappoint every time, but failure would only truly come when I and others like me give up on sincere attempts at compromise. But we (San Francisco,…
Now we have a multifaceted problem for sure. The people who own homes don't want their homes losing value. We need to build new homes without destroying the value of the older homes.
_THAT_ is the problem. A neighborhood that currently is filled with $700k to $2mm homes attracts a certain clientele. Filling it up with a trailer park is going to be rejected by the local boards / NIMBYism.
For good measure. I personally wouldn't want my $1mm investment to go down the drain to fix the housing issue.
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But that doesn't change the fundamental problem at play here. The price of current homes is too high, and that's largely because the bay area doesn't have enough homes. Either now, nor being built.
> To think Oakland, a far less wealthy city, could merely build its way out of the current problem using public funds and without displacing anybody is even less realistic, to say the least.
A trailer park is cheap as hell. The issue isn't about building it. Its about the NIMBYism revolving around home prices, and how that kind of addition would lower the value of properties.
I'm not demonizing NIMBYism. I understand it. But you gotta understand that political issue as well to see how it affects the greater region.
Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief
#65So much of the discussion around homelessness these days essentially boils down to "How can we move these people to a place where we don't have to look at them" instead of "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." So many people also try to lay the blame at the feet of the victims here, but drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness, but rather s…
> How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place Pay people to get sterilized. Right now our current welfare system encourages homeless women to have children - since they are immediately granted public housing. Offering homeless men $5,000 and women $10,000 for vasectomies and tube tying will save a fortune in welfare costs and end the cycle of poverty.
There is some evidence that homelessness & poverty increases the likelihood that the next generation is homeless/poor but that would be a secondary factor. The moral & political cost of a forced sterilization program is indescribably immense in the West and would need to promise similarly immense outcomes which are nowhere to be seen.
Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief
#66So much of the discussion around homelessness these days essentially boils down to "How can we move these people to a place where we don't have to look at them" instead of "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." So many people also try to lay the blame at the feet of the victims here, but drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness, but rather s…
> drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness Evidence? I'd be very interested to see the research that supports your assertion that mental health/ substance abuse are not significant primary causal factors to homelessness, but rather merely coincident parallel "symptoms".
> Most researchers agree that the connection between homelessness and mental illness is a complicated, two-way relationship. An individual’s mental illness may lead to cognitive and behavioral problems that make it difficult to earn a stable income or to carry out daily activities in ways that encourage stable housing. Several studies have shown, however, that individuals with mental illnesses often find themselves homeless primarily as the result of poverty and a lack of low-income housing.
That was a summary article that lists some sources at the bottom.
Aside from the research, it makes intuitive sense to me as well. Even high severity mental illness is not exclusive or close to exclusive to homeless populations. For every mental illness you find in a homeless person, you can usually find a non-homeless person who has managed it with social support and/or medication. It doesn't make sense to portray homelessness as a causal outcome of mental illness that won't be affected by social & economic policy.
Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
We absolutely need to build more subsidized housing. And I support those policies, including many of the perennial bond measures. I do so out of earnestness and the hope that the next bond measure will placate the various NIMBY factions on the Board of Supervisors. They disappoint every time, but failure would only truly come when I and others like me give up on sincere attempts at compromise. But we (San Francisco,…
When the price of housing goes up, homelessness goes up. Now we have a multifaceted problem for sure. The people who own homes don't want their homes losing value. We need to build new homes without destroying the value of the older homes. _THAT_ is the problem. A neighborhood that currently is filled with $700k to $2mm homes attracts a certain clientele. Filling it up with a trailer park is going to be rejected by t…
So you keep saying. Care to put some numbers to that? Try ballparking the per-unit cost of land, improvements, and construction for what is essentially single-family development in and around the bay area. Then let us know who's going to pay for it.
> But that doesn't change the fundamental problem at play here. The price of current homes is too high
Literally not a single person here would disagree with that. You're not saying anything new or revelatory. You think you have some kind of nuanced perspective, but you're just repeating what everyone else has said here for years; runaway housing inflation, nimbyism, etc. Yes, true, very good.
I don't think anyone who believes the solution to homelessness involves building "cheap as hell" trailer parks in the most expensive areas of the country can have thought about this too deeply.
Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
> How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place Pay people to get sterilized. Right now our current welfare system encourages homeless women to have children - since they are immediately granted public housing. Offering homeless men $5,000 and women $10,000 for vasectomies and tube tying will save a fortune in welfare costs and end the cycle of poverty.
This comment has to be one of the most vile things I have read in a long time. Even surpasses the hermaincain and coronavirus subreddits in horrific commentary. You think homeless people only come from other homeless people? Even if this is just a bot or troll account. If anyone reading this actually has this thoughtprocess as a solution. Please, volounteer. Soup kitchen for example. The homeless are not a substandar…
Many people voluntarily seek out birth control. Its difficult for homeless people to manage that long-term. Vasagel is also a solution for homeless men. Long-term implants can be used for women.
Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
When the price of housing goes up, homelessness goes up. Now we have a multifaceted problem for sure. The people who own homes don't want their homes losing value. We need to build new homes without destroying the value of the older homes. _THAT_ is the problem. A neighborhood that currently is filled with $700k to $2mm homes attracts a certain clientele. Filling it up with a trailer park is going to be rejected by t…
> A trailer park is cheap as hell. So you keep saying. Care to put some numbers to that? Try ballparking the per-unit cost of land, improvements, and construction for what is essentially single-family development in and around the bay area. Then let us know who's going to pay for it. > But that doesn't change the fundamental problem at play here. The price of current homes is too high Literally not a single person he…
$90,000 for the lot. Place maybe 2 or 3 trailer-homes onto the property + a driveway to access the trailer-homes. Maybe $300k for 3 family units.
The issue isn't the price of land or the price of trailer-homes ($20,000 per trailer home). Its the NIMBYism, the neighbors who will run you out of the neighborhood for bringing down the value of their homes.
Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief
#70So much of the discussion around homelessness these days essentially boils down to "How can we move these people to a place where we don't have to look at them" instead of "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." So many people also try to lay the blame at the feet of the victims here, but drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness, but rather s…
> "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." Make cheaper houses. Other areas of the country mass-produces mobile homes, trailer parks, and other low-income options. Sure, you now have "ghettos", but a ghetto is preferable to homelessness. Target $50,000 homes or cheaper, and build lots of them. Yes, $50k. Maybe $20k. These people can't afford too much. Build them close enough t…
The former doesn't have to be endemic, and not the default option for the latter.