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The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief

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Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief

#31

Post by aerostable_slug »

pydry wrote: post #27
aerostable_slug wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

San Francisco's Housing First program has been an expensive failure. The only real beneficiaries were and are the owners of the SROs. My research indicates similar outcomes in some European locales, while Finland appears to be an outlier with markedly better success than, say, Scotland. Providing no-strings-attached housing in the United States appears to do little but get rain off people's heads. That is not really…

Apparently SF housing first program spent between $4-$14 million to spend on temporarily renting out cheap motels. That's supposed to be expensive ? That's pathetic . It'll provide temporary accomodation for a handful of people at most. I understand the political imperative to declare it a failure though. House prices uber alles.

You don't get it — I'm not motivated by property values. I'm motivated by 1.) the massive waste of taxpayer dollars that could go elsewhere, and 2.) my compassion for people who really need help, not just a room.

San Francisco spends over $100,000 per homeless individual, per year. It is ridiculous that I kept seeing the same faces doing the same things for years, and of course their population has grown and continues to grow. Throwing money at the problem doesn't work in the United States. The continued advocacy for these programs seems to be rooted in either progressive wishful thinking or simple graft (there's a lot of money changing hands).

Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief

#32

Post by nate_meurer »

rfwhyte wrote: post #22

So much of the discussion around homelessness these days essentially boils down to "How can we move these people to a place where we don't have to look at them" instead of "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." So many people also try to lay the blame at the feet of the victims here, but drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness, but rather s…

> drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness

Evidence? I'd be very interested to see the research that supports your assertion that mental health/ substance abuse are not significant primary causal factors to homelessness, but rather merely coincident parallel "symptoms".

Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief

#33

Post by vanusa »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #30
vanusa wrote: post #12

I can definitely go with this "pay them to build and manage their own homes" idea. As long as what they build is up to code.

A program like Habitat For Humanity[1], which does exactly that, would have to scale up enormously to house everyone on the street, but could at least serve as a model. I have volunteered on single-family builds, but for big multi-unit buildings they tend to not use volunteers as they require more actual experience in the building trades (and being bonded and insured I think). 1: https://www.habitat.org/about/faq#hom…

Yeah, there's only so much these people can do on their own. But the point is -- there's no reason not to at least try to take them seriously.

Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief

#34

Post by dragontamer »

rfwhyte wrote: post #22

So much of the discussion around homelessness these days essentially boils down to "How can we move these people to a place where we don't have to look at them" instead of "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." So many people also try to lay the blame at the feet of the victims here, but drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness, but rather s…

> "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place."

Make cheaper houses.

Other areas of the country mass-produces mobile homes, trailer parks, and other low-income options. Sure, you now have "ghettos", but a ghetto is preferable to homelessness.

Target $50,000 homes or cheaper, and build lots of them. Yes, $50k. Maybe $20k. These people can't afford too much. Build them close enough to areas where the homeless can find jobs, and enough public transit options to support them so that they can do useful work as well.

------

"Ghettos" are unavoidable, and much preferred over homelessness. The next step is how to improve the lives of people in Ghettos (ex: the low-education, high-crime, poor justice), but you must start with shelter before you can make progress.

Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief

#35

Post by jseliger »

nate_meurer wrote: post #32
rfwhyte wrote: post #22

So much of the discussion around homelessness these days essentially boils down to "How can we move these people to a place where we don't have to look at them" instead of "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." So many people also try to lay the blame at the feet of the victims here, but drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness, but rather s…

> drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness Evidence? I'd be very interested to see the research that supports your assertion that mental health/ substance abuse are not significant primary causal factors to homelessness, but rather merely coincident parallel "symptoms".

They are a cause, but they're exacerbated by high housing prices that are in turn caused by land restrictions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29193206

Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief

#36

Post by nate_meurer »

aerostable_slug wrote: post #31
pydry wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently SF housing first program spent between $4-$14 million to spend on temporarily renting out cheap motels. That's supposed to be expensive ? That's pathetic . It'll provide temporary accomodation for a handful of people at most. I understand the political imperative to declare it a failure though. House prices uber alles.

You don't get it — I'm not motivated by property values. I'm motivated by 1.) the massive waste of taxpayer dollars that could go elsewhere, and 2.) my compassion for people who really need help, not just a room. San Francisco spends over $100,000 per homeless individual, per year. It is ridiculous that I kept seeing the same faces doing the same things for years , and of course their population has grown and continu…

Have you read anything about Denver's housing-first program? I haven't taken the time to read up on it, but the popular narrative around here is that it's been successful enough to be worth expanding.

Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief

#37

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

aerostable_slug wrote: post #31
pydry wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently SF housing first program spent between $4-$14 million to spend on temporarily renting out cheap motels. That's supposed to be expensive ? That's pathetic . It'll provide temporary accomodation for a handful of people at most. I understand the political imperative to declare it a failure though. House prices uber alles.

You don't get it — I'm not motivated by property values. I'm motivated by 1.) the massive waste of taxpayer dollars that could go elsewhere, and 2.) my compassion for people who really need help, not just a room. San Francisco spends over $100,000 per homeless individual, per year. It is ridiculous that I kept seeing the same faces doing the same things for years , and of course their population has grown and continu…

I think a lot of people have never actually had to care for a person with serious mental illness, and are naive about what it entails.

Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief

#38

Post by dragontamer »

nate_meurer wrote: post #32
rfwhyte wrote: post #22

So much of the discussion around homelessness these days essentially boils down to "How can we move these people to a place where we don't have to look at them" instead of "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." So many people also try to lay the blame at the feet of the victims here, but drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness, but rather s…

> drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness Evidence? I'd be very interested to see the research that supports your assertion that mental health/ substance abuse are not significant primary causal factors to homelessness, but rather merely coincident parallel "symptoms".

Even your crazed schizophrenic wants a home to sleep in. A warm bed during the cold, and a roof to keep out the rain.

Its not like crazed schizophrenics are inhuman or whatever. And a home won't solve their mental problems. But getting them off the streets (by finding cheap enough housing for them to afford) solves a lot of other issues.

They still have stress, both physical and mental. And that stress could be making it harder for them to deal with their mental issues.

Depending on the state of their delusion, it might be possible for them to hold a job as well. Maybe you need some social-workers checking in on them depending on how bad the mental illness is, but even schizophrenics are still able to make meaningful contributions to society in the right environment (ex: John Forbes Nash Jr.).

--------

The goal isn't to solve mental diseases, but to build environments where people inflicted with those mental diseases can still be of net-benefit to society.

We all can agree that a __HOMELESS__ crazed schizophrinic is worse than a crazed schizophrinic, right? Solving the homeless problem is a step in the right direction, even if the delusions are unsolvable.

And again: plenty of schizophrinics are high-functioning enough to check into the doctor, mental care, social workers, etc. etc. They can act independently, hold jobs and benefit society. That's probably one of the worst diseases to have but even then its not a hopeless situation.

Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief

#39

Post by treeman79 »

rfwhyte wrote: post #22

So much of the discussion around homelessness these days essentially boils down to "How can we move these people to a place where we don't have to look at them" instead of "How do we build a society where homelessness doesn't happen in the first place." So many people also try to lay the blame at the feet of the victims here, but drug abuse, mental health problems, etc. are not the cause of homelessness, but rather s…

Easy. But you won’t like it.

Eliminate minimum wage and most worker protections. Make lawsuits more difficult. Eliminate all non private handouts. Remove most restrictions on housing density. Lower tax rates.

Basically be Hong Kong back before China took over.

Only the most severe cases will end up on street.

Everyone else will have some level of income and housing will be cheap.

Private charity can handle the most extreme cases.

Re: The Oakland homeless problem is beyond belief

#40

Post by jyounker »

adamrezich wrote: post #10
cityzen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Head down to LA where you can navigate around human poop on the walk of fame. America is a wild place.

California is a wild place, and by no means representative of the rest of the country.

California is an example of what happens you cap property tax rate increases.
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