How to design a house to last 1000 years • Hacker News Board

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#361

Post by bzbarsky » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 3:49 AM UTC

a9h74j wrote: post #359

abainbridge wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

York Minster in England is mostly 1000 years old. There are some nice stories about how it handled a serious fire in 1984 here, (starting about 18 minutes in) https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0007pws . eg, the 2000 year old Roman drainage system got used for the first time in 1000 years because lots of water got inside the building from the fire hoses. When rebuilding it, they had to decide whether to remake it in…

There is a story about one of the Ivy League universities. IIRC, in one of the century-or-two old buildings, there was a need to replace some main interior beams in a roof. Among the staff, someone knew someone who remembered something about this. Turns out, there was a special grove of trees, still under control of the university, which had been planted to provide replacement beams -- after 150 years of growth. An o…

I've heard that as a story about Westminster, which makes me suspect the whole thing is an urban legend...

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#362

Post by JasonFruit » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 4:07 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #183

scatters wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slate is not made of fossilized leaves; its foliate structure arises from the metamorphic process as flakes of clay (aluminium silicates) align and merge into sheets under transverse pressure. Any organic material present in the original sedimentary deposit will typically result in a graphite inclusion.

Hm, ok! I totally bought this when it was related to me but you are absolutely correct. It always makes me wonder if there is a faster way to cross check everything in your head to fish out the false stuff other than people taking the time to point these things out. Thank you.

I wish there were a service to sort through the ideas in my head and point out the flawed ones too — until I realize that a) I'd have to agree to one implanted product preference for each hundred thoughts scanned, and b) many of my thoughts would be placed behind trigger warning overlays.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#363

Post by dahfizz » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 4:38 AM UTC

tiborsaas wrote: post #255

djrogers wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not like we are running low on examples of 1000+ years buildings ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_century_in_architecture ). These castles, cathedrals, farms, were built to last, so it's appropriate to use them as examples. This is an easy place to run in to a survivorship bias problem - pick a random 1000 year old farmhouse. How many farmhouses built exactly the same way didn't last for various reasons? I…

If you look at that list, almost all of the surviving buildings are churches or religious places. If the goal is to build something that lasts 1000 years, then you need to factor in political and utility questions as well besides fixating on materials. Your home can have perfect architecture, but if a rich person buys your land after you are gone and decides what you've had sucks, it will just get demolished and repl…

Ding ding ding. You can make a canvas tent last 1000 years if you have a maintenance team constantly making repairs. This is 100% an issue with human incentives, not construction technology.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#364

Post by ckemere » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 4:43 AM UTC

a9h74j wrote: post #359

abainbridge wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

York Minster in England is mostly 1000 years old. There are some nice stories about how it handled a serious fire in 1984 here, (starting about 18 minutes in) https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0007pws . eg, the 2000 year old Roman drainage system got used for the first time in 1000 years because lots of water got inside the building from the fire hoses. When rebuilding it, they had to decide whether to remake it in…

There is a story about one of the Ivy League universities. IIRC, in one of the century-or-two old buildings, there was a need to replace some main interior beams in a roof. Among the staff, someone knew someone who remembered something about this. Turns out, there was a special grove of trees, still under control of the university, which had been planted to provide replacement beams -- after 150 years of growth. An o…

Actually 400 years - https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/oak-beams-new-college-ox...

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#365

Post by pagekicker » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 5:06 AM UTC

Key issues with longevity is property rights, land use, and architectural quality. If you build on a parcel that is purchasable,someone will buy it and redevelop. If you choose a spot that is suitable for many uses, one of them will trump residential. If it is ugly or costly to maintain , it will be torn down.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#366

Post by ggcdn » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 5:13 AM UTC

ggcdn wrote: post #279

rsync wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstood my comment about steel in the ground ... I was trying to convince the OP that they don't need to worry about the corrosion since even in terrible circumstances the steel still lasts quite a while. With regard to your skyscraper experience: I'm not sure this is an apples-to-apples comparison. Skyscrapers are not made of skyscraper-height columns - they are a stack of elements that are connected every…

Rigidity is good for some things and bad for others. In seismic design, inertial forces tend to decrease as structures become more flexible (Good!). But the consequence is that things move more (Bad!) meaning that all the nonstructural things get damaged - drywall, chimney, ceilings, etc. If things move too much, they also are subject to various types of degradation - yielding, fatigue, etc. The other structural aspe…

[clarification: I mixed up my unit conversion. A 3/4" A325 bolt resists ~25kip shear or 31kip tension. One of the joys of working in an industry that primarily uses customary units, while codes are written in SI units]

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#367

Post by nihonde » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 5:15 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #117

rsync wrote: post #98

This is a very odd design document and it makes me think this author has thought a lot about materials and buildings but not actually built anything . The steel moment frame, to someone with shallow knowledge, sounds so strong and resilient . But in fact, a rigid steel structure is more vulnerable to seismic (and even wind) loads than wooden framing which can flex and move and dampen those loads naturally. The stainl…

"rigid steel structure" Steel is springy. Tall steel-framed buildings and bridges routinely sway in wind, which is usually harmless to the structure but annoying to occupants. Unless you get harmonic oscillation, where the energy stored in the motion builds up, which can be a problem and has destroyed bridges. Much of seismic design involves connections which raise the resonant frequency of the structure so it can't…

> Tension joints for wood are seen in classic Japanese construction

Japan also has several wooden buildings that purport to be 1,000+ years old—although these situations inevitably lead to Ship of Theseus debates.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#368

Post by seanmcdirmid » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 5:20 AM UTC

nihonde wrote: post #367

Animats wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"rigid steel structure" Steel is springy. Tall steel-framed buildings and bridges routinely sway in wind, which is usually harmless to the structure but annoying to occupants. Unless you get harmonic oscillation, where the energy stored in the motion builds up, which can be a problem and has destroyed bridges. Much of seismic design involves connections which raise the resonant frequency of the structure so it can't…

> Tension joints for wood are seen in classic Japanese construction Japan also has several wooden buildings that purport to be 1,000+ years old—although these situations inevitably lead to Ship of Theseus debates.

Japan basically rebuilds everything on a 20-30 year schedule. The temples are not an exception.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#369

Post by pontifier » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 5:24 AM UTC

avereveard wrote: post #180

rsync wrote: post #98

This is a very odd design document and it makes me think this author has thought a lot about materials and buildings but not actually built anything . The steel moment frame, to someone with shallow knowledge, sounds so strong and resilient . But in fact, a rigid steel structure is more vulnerable to seismic (and even wind) loads than wooden framing which can flex and move and dampen those loads naturally. The stainl…

> If I had an unlimited budget at some point on the price scale you can just build a titanium cast for a house and pour molten rocks in, probably a basalt. what's the yield strength of igneous rocks? maybe the roof need to be arched.

I was thinking about this when the lava firehose was going in Hawaii. I imagined a big metal shell that you could rotate under it to make a bunch of giant house sized domes really fast.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#370

Post by nihonde » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 5:32 AM UTC

Rikuesque wrote: post #231

JAlexoid wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a case of "more western home". What you see as a "more western home" is a more energy efficient outer shell. Which just happens to be fairly universal.

I agree on that, although there are residential homes in Japan that implement energy efficient outer shell, while still keeping the Machiya look. There definitely is a preference in Japanese society for western style homes.

Most modern Japanese homes are not "western style" at all. They're usually built by large industrial concerns (e.g., Toyota, Sekisui, etc.) that prefabricate many components at scale. The process of building such a home in Japan begins with a company architect fitting their design system onto your lot. The price is fairly predictable, and relatively cheap—-under US$300K in most places. The home is designed with more or less the following priorities: 1. Safety 2. Ease of maintenance 3. Efficiency 4. Cost

And more recently, considerations for SDGs (sustainability goals) with respect to materials used.

Longevity is not a priority, as homes are expected to depreciate in value over roughly 20 years. There are many reasons for this, but my personal opinion is that industrialization has made it possible to upgrade the technology of the home at a pace and a price that favors rebuilding.

As for machiya and kominka, local governments like Kyoto have tried to intervene to preserve the traditional homes. The "no build" lots do not allow a property owner to build on anything other than the load-bearing structure for the old home. As a result, you have many empty lots and coin parking lots around Kyoto where the old home was unsalvageable or where the owner could not afford a renovation. To be honest, only tourists/foreigners would want to stay in a machiya for the novelty of it. Although they were marvelously engineered for their time, they tend to be rough living compared to the extremely easy and cheap prefab homes. There is also the problem of craftspeople who can maintain these old homes dying out, which adds to the cost of keeping them.

I don't think it's possible to attribute any of this to a general "Japanese" attitude, though. On the one hand, one of the most important and longest-lasting spiritual sites in Japan is Ise Jingu, which is rebuilt from scratch every 20 years as a Shinto ritual of renewal. On the other hand, you have some of the oldest and largest wooden structures in the world still standing in Nara.

As usual, it's complicated.