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TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

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Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#291

Post by bllguo »

avs733 wrote: post #274
colinmhayes wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workers have to compete with everyone else in the world. If a company employs American workers who demand high wages to do the same work that international workers do for less pay that company will fail. The economy is a competition, companies can't just give away money.

> The economy is a competition, companies can't just give away money. And this article makes that point very salient, as does antiunion drives at many companies. Say it costs me X to run a PR campaign about lazy workers or hire an antiunion consulting firm. It might cost me Y to raise pay, hire more workers, and/or improve working conditions. If X is less than Y and achieves the same effect - I do X, if Y is less, I…

except if it were solely up to TSMC this fab would not even exist. this whole project is a product of US pressure on Taiwan, as they would have much more leverage over the US if they kept their semiconductor expertise to themselves. let's not pretend the US would be so gung-ho if it weren't for TSMC, Taiwan provides little value otherwise

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#292

Post by decafninja »

fivea wrote: post #281
majormajor wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salary info I'm finding on google suggest that electrical engineers still get paid less in Taiwan than in the US. I'd also be very curious what those numbers looked like over the decades when offshoring really ramped up. Not "10x less" or anything incredibly dramatic, but for a business, money saved is money saved. It's silly to have a whole thread of back and forth responses on "is it racist to say cost of labor is…

> Personally I'm waiting for engineering salaries in the non-US to catch up to the US because it'll make it easier for me to leave the US if I choose to do so but it doesn't look like it's happened yet. Let me chime in to say that salary isn't everything in life, or the key to live a good, fulfilling life. I'd even argue that socialized healthcare and worker's rights, ensured in numerous European countries, do far mo…

I would imagine there comes a point where an "absurdly" high salary can more than compensate for deficiencies in the US healthcare system. Sacrificing some work-life balance as well.

In the latter case, that point is different for different people, but if you're making FAANG seniorSWE+ level compensation (especially if it's at one of the easier FAANGs), I would think the options to optimize your quality of life is probably higher in the US than in the hypothetical more socialistic European countries you mention.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#293

Post by decafninja »

ericmcer wrote: post #265
phkahler wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It’s like: That's cute, but not what actually happened. It started with: Company: We want more profit Production: Moved to Asia Other Companies: We can't compete any more Other Production: Moved to Asia Companies: Oh crap, we need production back in the US (for various reasons) Production: Oh shit that's right, we moved because it cost less with no labor or environmental protections and we could work the shit out…

You should watch "American Factory" on Netflix. It is about a Chinese company opening a factory in Ohio. There may be economics behind the different work cultures, but the cultures are hugely different at this point. The Chinese managers are actually baffled that workers only want to work for the paycheck, and don't work hard for pride. They have to take courses about how American workers need to be coddled and treat…

Not a factory, and Korean instead of Chinese, but I worked for one of the major householdname Korean conglomerates at their US branch. It was well known amongst the Korean and Korean-American employees that their salaries were lowballed versus their non-Korean colleagues, and that they were also expected to work longer hours.

The reason?

"Korean Pride".

You were expected to go above and beyond for sake of the glory and well being of the Republic of Korea and the Korean People, via the proxy of The Company.

Most of us (myself included) internally thought this was total bullshit, and were on the lookout for the first opportunity to jump ship specifically for a non-Korean company. Of course we would never admit that to a manager, especially the expats from Korea.

It was also known that the best teams to work for in terms of work-life balance and just general pleasantness were ones where the manager and teammates were comprised mostly (or entirely) of non-Koreans, or at least heavily Americanized Korean-Americans. Having an older conservative expat Korean manager was the worst possible scenario.

One nice perk was having a big name like The Company on your resume wasn't bad at all for future job prospects.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#294

Post by aidenn0 »

gwright wrote: post #232
everybodyknows wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current yield to shareholders in the form of dividends is 1.5% -- below inflation.

I don't think that dividends are typically coupled to inflation. The return on an investment (at least via stock ownership) includes dividends + asset appreciation, right? I would expect the combination to be related to inflation but not necessarily dividends alone. Is that the right way to think about it? I'm not a finance guy.

That's the right way to think about it.

An idealized company in a static market that has been making the same real (i.e. inflation adjusted) profits for a while and is expected to for quite some time will have its price track inflation, so any dividends paid out will be on top of inflation.

Real life is much messier than the above, due to things like speculation (how much some people think other people will think the company will be worth in a year), changes in the broader market (if the "zero risk" rate of returns goes up or down, then equities, which have higher risk will tend to move in the opposite direction), and such can have drastic effects on a company's market value.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#295

Post by aidenn0 »

webmaven wrote: post #225
csours wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This all reminds me of the short story "They're Made out of Meat" https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/think...

I've read (and watched) that story at least a dozen times, and your comment still seemed like a non sequitur. Then I got it. Brilliant.

Someone needs to explain it to me because I'm still lost...

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#296

Post by aidenn0 »

jandrese wrote: post #257
avs733 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from my experience in semiconductor fabs, its probably worth differentiating the different schedules a little bit. I'm going to start from generally the lowest to the highest paid while noting this doesn't necessarily reflect the lowest to highest value. The factory: runs 24x7x365 - it has to, most processes have enough controlled time processes that it is a effectively week (or weeks) long process to shut down certa…

One thing worth considering is that it is well known that long shifts increase the odds of worker error. This is why we have strict laws against pilots or truck drivers working past their effective hours. An accident at a chip factory isn't going to be front page news the way an airplane crash is, but it could very easy cost millions in repairs and lost productivity. When I see talk about 12 hour shifts I always wond…

Mentioned elsewhere is that increase handoffs (which happen with shorter shifts) also increase the odds of worker error. Where exactly the sweet-spot is is probably an open question.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#297

Post by csours »

aidenn0 wrote: post #295
webmaven wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read (and watched) that story at least a dozen times, and your comment still seemed like a non sequitur. Then I got it. Brilliant.

Someone needs to explain it to me because I'm still lost...

"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines."

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#298

Post by avs733 »

bllguo wrote: post #291
avs733 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The economy is a competition, companies can't just give away money. And this article makes that point very salient, as does antiunion drives at many companies. Say it costs me X to run a PR campaign about lazy workers or hire an antiunion consulting firm. It might cost me Y to raise pay, hire more workers, and/or improve working conditions. If X is less than Y and achieves the same effect - I do X, if Y is less, I…

except if it were solely up to TSMC this fab would not even exist. this whole project is a product of US pressure on Taiwan, as they would have much more leverage over the US if they kept their semiconductor expertise to themselves. let's not pretend the US would be so gung-ho if it weren't for TSMC, Taiwan provides little value otherwise

It’s not like TSMC is unfamiliar with government efforts in support of key industries.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#299

Post by sitkack »

deanCommie wrote: post #261
sitkack wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any company that runs down worker resources by running them out of spec is not sustainable and indicative of a lack of mature management. You wouldn't run your physical machinery outside of its operating area, so don't do it to your workforce. Automate. Fabs are the knife edge of technology, literally building the components that go into all other forms of automation, yet they are reliant on primate and medieval era…

Yes...with a lot of asterixes. Ask anyone who worked in retail for a long time. When they replaced the point of sale and catalog search systems in the early 2000's, everyone's productivity plummeted. They replaced old, DOS/Norton-style keyboard-only systems with a legion of shortcuts and archaic codes with Web-based touch-screen or mouse-based UIs with modern UX etc. The new technology was obviously more modern and a…

I appreciate the sentiment, but we are talking about different things. My comment was directed entirely at how hard some companies push their workforce, not what era the technology is from.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#300

Post by jmpman »

mywittyname wrote: post #231
jmpman wrote: post #187

I’ve known many Intel process engineers who’ve worked 80 hour weeks for years on end. This 48 hour TSMC demand would be a relief. Unfortunately, while TSMC moved to AZ, the moved to the other side of Phoenix from the existing Fabs. An Intel engineer isn’t going to just wake up one day and decide to change jobs to TSMC. They’re an hour and a half away from each other during the morning commute. So now, the engineer ne…

I feel like your post is incongruent. Intel engineers wouldn't be willing to endure a 10-14 hour longer commute to save 32 hours of working time? Moving an hour down the road isn't a big deal. I've done so many times. You don't even need special moving companies and looking at houses isn't a huge deal if you batch them up.

The barrier to move an hour and a half is less than moving across country, but it’s not insignificant. Your kids are changing school/school districts. You’re finding a new church. Your friends who you met for dinner each Friday - not going to see them but once a month now. Your relatives that you invited over for dinner every Tuesday - you’ll see them on birthdays and the holidays. The distance is too far to comfortably commute for more than a year. I did roughly half that same commute for 2 years and it was mentally taxing. And no, the engineers who are working 80 hours a week aren’t “normal” people who are all of a sudden going to start working just 48 hours a week.

Btw, the Intel engineers in Chandler aren’t the cause of Intel’s process woes. They’re world class. TSMC is hiring fresh new hires, from a generation that doesn’t yet know or celebrate hard work.

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