Earlier quoted context omitted.
Going by the article, it seems a large part of the "culture clash" is TSMC's insistence on three hours of meetings each day and using outdated software that was designed back in 1987(!). While workers in Taiwan used to work 12 hour days, time worked is not a good indicator of productivity and I'm willing to bet that TSMC's massive profitability meant there wasn't much incentive to make the work process more efficient…
My impression was that the extra hours are due to the factories being on a 24/7 uninterrupted production cycle. Having people work 12 hour shifts instead of 8 reduces the headcount required by 33%.
TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash
211–220 of 303 posts
Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash
#212First, the structure. TSMC will have tool owners who manage the tool on their side. The tool suppliers will have engineers who maintain the tools from their side. A tool is a piece of equipment involved in the manufacturing process.
This relationship is interesting. The tool owner's performance is heavily dependent upon their ability to maximize availability. This mainly involves managing relationships with the suppliers and fighting for more resources from the supplier's engineers to fix the tools.
Supplier sign availability contracts to provide maintenance for the tools. There is a lot of pressure and politics involved.
Second is hiring. Onboarding is a big problem. Training a college grad from scratch requires 1.5 years, a lot of domain knowledge. It is a huge investment to fly them around the world to different training sites and to give them opportunities to practice on the tools.
Lastly is culture. TSMC pushes their guys and their tools to their limits. They work in high pressure environments and are expected to proactively step up. In Taiwan, the managers often yell at their workers and the workers have little room to negotiate.
TSMC tool owners know a lot more about how the tools work than their competitors, sometimes even more than their suppliers. TSMC tool owners often step in and do things themselves.
TSMC will also not be able to hire the same quality of talent as in Taiwan. TSMC in Taiwan pays more and has higher prestige. This is not the same in Arizona. They will also have trouble convincing "target school" talent to relocate to Arizona.
Now what does this amount to?
First, the supplier's engineers will have options to work for Intel and Samsung and will probability prefer to work at those sites. Intel has the best work culture. Quality, safety, etc. This will force TSMC to make changes.
Second, TSMC will have trouble keeping talent if they push phds to work as tool owners, as the job market provides better opportunities in the US.
This will result in the new fab to staffed with more inexperienced workers. This is very problematic because domain knowledge from experience in this field is key. The inexperience will result in availability issues (5-10 percent) affect production.
So what should TSMC do?
What TSMC must adapt to the local culture and lower their expectations. They must be able to convince experienced engineers to work at their site. They can also push this to their supplier's side in terms of availability contracts. They need to relocated some experienced process engineers and tool owners from Taiwan or the throughput and yield will drop.
If they do hire new talent, they have a great opportunity to break industry norms. This industry is filled with bad practices from older engineers. These habits are incredibly difficult to break. If they train new engineers correctly, they can outperform the older engineers.
End of the day, the fab will come up, it will run. The question is how many chips will they be able to produce in the first few years.
Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash
#213It’s like: People: We want stuff cheaply, immediately and in immense volume! Production: Moves to Asia People: We want jobs! Production: Opens a new factory in the USA People: We don’t want to work that much! Production: increases pay, which increases product cost People: this is too expensive. Can we buy from overseas cheaply instead? Production: Closes USA factory, moves back to Asia. People: we want jobs…
or... "we want reasonable jobs that allow us to have a life and do not functionally make us the property of a corporate entity that does not share sufficient amounts of the gains of our labor with us and labels requests to be treated with respect as unintelligible" States/those with power claiming things are 'unintelligible' when in fact they just don't like them or want to treat them as valid is a classic form of co…
Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash
#214tl;dr labor in taiwan is cheap enough that they've continued to use the same old software with lots of manual steps filled in by the labor
Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
> As an European these hours would be completely unacceptable to me unless it's 3 days on 4 days off, which it doesn't seem to be. Americans aren’t interested in 13 hour shifts, either, unless the pay is extraordinarily high. I agree: Something is missing from this article. If they’re running 3-on, 4-off schedules with these hours, that’s one thing. But if they’re asking 13-hour days and 5-day weeks then it’s an open…
Last year in Taiwan, their fresh-out-of-college employees were paid 13-month salary worth of year end bonus. Some may consider it worthwhile in their stage of life. Correction: 14-month worth plus additional performance bonus.
Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
TSMC's largest customers are American though. Apple, Nvidia, and AMD. These companies sourced their chips internationally to TSMC for cost reasons, related mainly to labor. They're to blame. There's a compounding effect too. They could've purchased American chips and subsidized American foundries. They didn't and instead American foundries have fallen behind.
The GDP per capita of Taiwan is higher than France. It's not the place you move jobs to to optimize for labor costs. Again, there's a pretty racist subtext here that because it's in Asia, you assume that must be cheap labor, not innovation. Would you have the same argument if the fabs were in France or Spain, both of which have lower GDPs per capita than Taiwan?
From the article is seems workers in Taiwan work 12 hour days as normal. Couple that with the fact that manufacturing used by primarily US being done outside US borders is generally some for cost saving reasons and it seems to make sense to assume that Taiwan IS doing this cheaper somehow. If it were a matter of innovation wouldn't the same innovation hold in their new plant in Arizona?
Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, according to their last quarterly report, they currently have around 28.4 billion US dollars in cash. So there's a big chunk :)
To put that into scale, here's some quotes from TSMC's Wikipedia article[0]: > In November 2020 officials in Phoenix, Arizona in the United States approved TSMC's plan to build a $12 billion chip plant in the city. [...] In 2021, news reports claimed that the facility may be tripled to roughly a $35 billion investment with six factories. > In November 2021, TSMC and Sony announced that TSMC would be establishing a ne…
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-01/tsmc-to-i...
Crazy! Although, like most companies, they will work hard not to spend their own money on it :)
Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
One factor you are missing in that analysis: TSMC is very profitable—about $5 billion per quarter. Better working conditions don't have to mean more expensive products; it could instead mean reduced profits. https://focustaiwan.tw/business/202110140010
Where do those profits go? Presumably TSMC doesn't just sit on it. Surely they either invest it back into their business to stay competitive or deal it out as compensation.
Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
The GDP per capita of Taiwan is higher than France. It's not the place you move jobs to to optimize for labor costs. Again, there's a pretty racist subtext here that because it's in Asia, you assume that must be cheap labor, not innovation. Would you have the same argument if the fabs were in France or Spain, both of which have lower GDPs per capita than Taiwan?
Calling this racist seems applicable but quite a stretch to me. From the article is seems workers in Taiwan work 12 hour days as normal. Couple that with the fact that manufacturing used by primarily US being done outside US borders is generally some for cost saving reasons and it seems to make sense to assume that Taiwan IS doing this cheaper somehow. If it were a matter of innovation wouldn't the same innovation ho…
There's also a difference between what you're saying and what the great-grandparent said: being cheaper can be because they have better processes or are more innovative, or have shorter supply lines, or better access to mainland China or whatever.
But the great-grandparent both (a) assumed that tech fundamentally belongs to the US, and if it's being done somewhere else, it's in service to the US, and (b) that the primary reason someone would produce things outside of the US is labor costs.
Labor costs are no longer the primary reason things are produced outside of the US. At this point, it's primarily industrial capacity and know-how.
Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are long hours, and there are long hours. I consider my self a fairly hard working person, in my first job I've seen situations where people came in on a Monday and would go to their homes next Monday. I've done a full time start up with a day job, quite literally coding every waking hour of my life(like 2 - 4 hours sleep a day) for years. And then I relocated from Bangalore to Bay Area for a while, and met a f…
The people you know worked long hours, but were they actually more productive? Studies on working have consistently shown diminishing returns on longer and longer hours, generally past 30-40, depending on job type, i.e. physical jobs like assembly line work drop of slowly (mistakes rise but only gradually) vs intellectual jobs where mistakes either rise rapidly or people adjust by taking more slack time throughout th…