How to design a house to last 1000 years • Hacker News Board

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#291

Post by jahewson » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #117

rsync wrote: post #98

This is a very odd design document and it makes me think this author has thought a lot about materials and buildings but not actually built anything . The steel moment frame, to someone with shallow knowledge, sounds so strong and resilient . But in fact, a rigid steel structure is more vulnerable to seismic (and even wind) loads than wooden framing which can flex and move and dampen those loads naturally. The stainl…

"rigid steel structure" Steel is springy. Tall steel-framed buildings and bridges routinely sway in wind, which is usually harmless to the structure but annoying to occupants. Unless you get harmonic oscillation, where the energy stored in the motion builds up, which can be a problem and has destroyed bridges. Much of seismic design involves connections which raise the resonant frequency of the structure so it can't…

> That's what those triangular reinforcement beams one sees in San Francisco really do.

Interestingly enough that’s not quite right. They were added in response to the Tacoma Narrows collapse which was not, as is popularly misstated, destroyed by harmonic resonance but by aerostatic flutter.

Certainly resonance due to cars or pedestrians can damage a bridge, but that’s a separate issue.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#292

Post by robocat » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:34 PM UTC

dpark wrote: post #222

robocat wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In locations hit by strong earthquakes, you don’t notice the ancient stone buildings that didn’t survive and are not there.

Italy was hit by a series of earthquakes in 2016, including a 6.6. Certainly there was a lot of damage, including in Rome, but most stone structures survived.

Damage from Earthquakes is usually localised - how close you are to the fault really really matters (until you get up to the mega-quakes that can affect much of a small country).

Christchurch was hit by a 6.2, but most of the damage occurred on the suburban south-Eastern half of the city, and the commercial buildings in the city centre which were more vulnerable. 10’s of kilometres away and no significant damage to buildings.

The magnitude 7.8 Kaikoura earthquake in 2016 had an epicentre 100km away from Christchurch, and there was no damage here in Christchurch.

Italy is ~1000km long.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#293

Post by ozim » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:34 PM UTC

SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #175

Fiahil wrote: post #128

I expected something much simpler : bricks, stones, and wood. It's not like we are running low on examples of 1000+ years buildings ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_century_in_architecture ). These castles, cathedrals, farms, were built to last, so it's appropriate to use them as examples. We can, however, apply modern technics and materials when they make sense : insulation, windows, waterways... Prefer wood, wo…

> We can, however, apply modern technics and materials when they make sense : insulation, windows, waterways... The article raises an important point that could be a problem when trying to mix old and new build techniques. When talking about brick walls it says: > One tricky thing with this type of assembly is that while it has performed well historically, it doesn’t necessarily play nice with more modern, energy eff…

My pet peeve is when people claim that heavy old cast iron radiators are "always better" than new flimsy steel ones.

Yes those are better for old houses with old insulation or no insulation because then you wanted radiator to keep warm so you can sit close to it and get yourself warm. Where with new thing ones you want to heat up the air so you don't want radiator to be warm but air in well insulated building.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#294

Post by WhompingWindows » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:36 PM UTC

Pressure treated wood: I see this as an essential material in modern building. Our own house used non-pressure-treated, regular boards for the sill (the walls attach to these sill boards, which are directly on top of the poured foundation, which had moisture seeping in). We got ants and termites who loved this damp wood, and they turned it to shreds in just 40 years. Will pressure treated wood last for 1000 years? I have no idea, but regular ole' wood didn't last 50 in our case.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#295

Post by lqet » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:36 PM UTC

Judging from the old towns where I grew up in in Europe, the problem isn't building a house that won't collapse for a 1000 years (a classic half-timbered house [0] will get you through most of the earthquakes to expect here for centuries). The problem is getting it through town fires [1], floods [2], and wars [3, 4].

[0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Ma...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_London

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary_Magdalene%27s_flood

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Magdeburg

[4] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Lu...

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#296

Post by sebben » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:37 PM UTC

For those interested this project has been built with longevity in mind.

The MiniCO2 Houses: The Maintenance-Free House https://www.realdaniabyogbyg.org/projects/the-minico2-houses...

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#297

Post by melenaboija » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:38 PM UTC

1 meter wide stone walls, mortar, no foundations and wooden beams is what my family house in Spain is made of. It has been there for several hundred years with absolutely 0 structural remodeling, some cosmetic work has been done. Seeing the house will be there for few more years, not sure 1000 though.

If I am correct some of the Romanesque constructions don’t need wood and those have been there for 1000 years.

The seismic activity in Spain is almost null, which I guess matters for this structures.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#298

Post by kuhewa » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:42 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #3

If I were to design a house with the idea that it should serve future generations, I'd design it to be reconfigured, recycled, or torn down easily. After reading some of Stewart Brand's writing, I've learned to love ugly buildings.

> torn down

Hmmmm. I think that doesn't count on ship of Theseus type grounds.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#299

Post by jerf » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:44 PM UTC

pharke wrote: post #288

jerf wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We’re also taking something of a risk using something as valuable as stainless steel - a common failure mode for buildings is for valuable material to be ripped out and repurposed. This can range from looters ripping the copper piping out of a house to sell for scrap, to Londoners reusing the stones from ruined Roman buildings, to countries at war melting down building components to make munitions. I don’t see an ob…

Missed it, thanks. I still take issue with the design. I think over 1000 years the risk is much higher than they imagine.

All you can really do is minimize it. You can't eliminate it. I mean, you can't even tell me whether humans will exist in 500 years, or whether intelligent non-humans will be running around (doesn't even have to be "aliens", humans will create them), or what. Trying to second guess how people will valuate things in 900 years is a joke.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#300

Post by dpark » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:44 PM UTC

robocat wrote: post #292

dpark wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italy was hit by a series of earthquakes in 2016, including a 6.6. Certainly there was a lot of damage, including in Rome, but most stone structures survived.

Damage from Earthquakes is usually localised - how close you are to the fault really really matters (until you get up to the mega-quakes that can affect much of a small country). Christchurch was hit by a 6.2, but most of the damage occurred on the suburban south-Eastern half of the city, and the commercial buildings in the city centre which were more vulnerable. 10’s of kilometres away and no significant damage to b…

Several of the earthquakes Italy has experienced were reasonably close to Rome. None have had the epicenter there to my knowledge, though.

It’s perhaps more interesting to ask what non-stone buildings have survived 1000 years. I don’t think there are any. So even if stone is more susceptible to earthquakes, it might still be the best choice for a building to last 1000 years.