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TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

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Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#121

Post by fakeslimshady5 »

cracrecry wrote: post #92
kamaal wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are long hours, and there are long hours. I consider my self a fairly hard working person, in my first job I've seen situations where people came in on a Monday and would go to their homes next Monday. I've done a full time start up with a day job, quite literally coding every waking hour of my life(like 2 - 4 hours sleep a day) for years. And then I relocated from Bangalore to Bay Area for a while, and met a f…

>I've done a full time start up with a day job, quite literally coding every waking hour of my life(like 2 - 4 hours sleep a day) for years I am much more productive coding than 99% of the people around me. One of my secrets is I sleep well. Probably your definition of coding is different from mine because of your working area. People make stupid mistakes when they are sleepy, including me, and it is way more expensi…

No post body was provided.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#122

Post by Cthulhu_ »

imgabe wrote: post #53
deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

I'm also confused. It's not like the US doesn't have factories that run 24/7. I spent a summer working swing shifts 12 hours a day, 3 days on, 3 days off.

> 3 days on, 3 days off.

That might be the crux of it. I gather it's similar on e.g. offshore oil rigs, one week on, one week off, but long, grueling days.

That said, this article (and the other threads) describe being available 24/7; you probably weren't expected to be on call during your days off.

Anyway, I think being on call is fine, as long as you get compensated for it - because you have to change your lifestyle to be available, plan things like going out or having a drink.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#123

Post by JaimeThompson »

j_walter wrote: post #42
emodendroket wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like total nonsense. Korea's work culture is not exactly Scandinavia and even the US is tough by the standards of other high-income countries. Plus, like, how did Dutch ASML get ahead, did they get some sort of special dispensation?

They cornered the market...they literally have a monopoly and it's impossible to compete against at this point. AMAT is also impossible to compete against despite how shitty they are because they just buy competitors and make them shitty to. If you have seen how TSMC works on the inside you would understand the culture and the drive to succeed. They don't care about political correctness, they could care less about h…

"They hired a former Intel HR director for the AZ plant and the first thing he asked was about their diversity program"

Do you have a source for that?

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#124

Post by madengr »

bsder wrote: post #44
PKop wrote: post #5

12 hour days. Sounds pretty dystopian. Guess there's a reason Taiwan has the lowest birthrate in the world. Working themselves into oblivion.

Nor even terribly unusual--even in US manufacturing. Longer than 8 hour shifts is simply a matter of scheduling--you then wind up doing things like 4 days on/3 days off. However, when you pass 40 hours, you owe people overtime in the US. I imagine that TSMC isn't particular stringent about documenting that in Taiwan.

No post body was provided.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#125

Post by scarab92 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #118
ianai wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. I’m hearing US citizens have become “practically ungovernable.” I’ve definitely experienced people acting with more hostility and clear inner turmoil just out running errands than ever before now. And this is enough to shock me after living a decade in one of the most hostile, large metropolitans in the US.

I am hearing that employers in the US are no longer able to negotiate the low pay per hours of work, often at undesirable times of the day and week and year, that they used to be able to demand. The type of work described in the article has a reputation of low pay per hour and being undesirable. > TSMC will have to change to an eight-hour work day five days a week.” Is this US society breaking down and American peopl…

This is what happens when the US tries to compete with Asia on manufacturing in a free market.

These are people who want that job to exist, but are unwilling to work for the pay and conditions necessary for that job to exist.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#126

Post by jason-phillips »

bob1029 wrote: post #95
deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

Many moons ago I used to work inside a samsung fab. At no point was I ever feeling a sense of outrage regarding having a literal 80s-style pager strapped to my body 24/7/365. A big part of why this didnt bother me was the scale/impact of what I was doing - I was responsible for the primary business interface used across the entire factory floor. Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a de…

> Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a deep way. Nothing you see in media can prepare you for the real thing.

While working for Samsung Austin Semiconductor in 2013, I needed to travel to Korea for a month as part of our work on a global supply chain software project. IIRC, we were working at the semiconductor complex at Giehung. The fabs there are unbelievably enormous, much bigger than American fabs. Twelve stories tall, ~200x700 meters. A half dozen of these behemoths parked next to each other.

I felt like I was walking through an industrial city in Star Wars.

Edit to add: I believe you can probably contact the public relations department at Samsung Austin Semiconductor and schedule a tour for your group.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#127

Post by Cthulhu_ »

sdoering wrote: post #64
sverhagen wrote: post #41

So, they spoke with one anonymous staff member, and then sourced, wait for it... Glassdoor. I'm not saying these claims are untrue or that they even seem untrue, but it's still squeezing an article out of... not a whole lot. Glassdoor doesn't have a reputation (in my circles) for "balanced opinions".

When looking at or using platforms like Glasdoor one always has to take the "selection bias" into account. People posting on a platform selfselect. And it is often when something is wrong, that one tends to feel the need to communicate that. When all is fine there often just is no need to communicate that. So using Glasdoor without taking this into consideration is at least an interesting editorial decision.

That's exactly it, a lot of people will only leave a review if they have something negative to say, be it Glassdoor, App Store, webshops, etc.

This is why apps prompt you to leave a review (sometimes offering rewards, often encouraging you to leave five stars), because without that prompt, content or happy people wouldn't leave a review.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#128

Post by ianai »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #118
ianai wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. I’m hearing US citizens have become “practically ungovernable.” I’ve definitely experienced people acting with more hostility and clear inner turmoil just out running errands than ever before now. And this is enough to shock me after living a decade in one of the most hostile, large metropolitans in the US.

I am hearing that employers in the US are no longer able to negotiate the low pay per hours of work, often at undesirable times of the day and week and year, that they used to be able to demand. The type of work described in the article has a reputation of low pay per hour and being undesirable. > TSMC will have to change to an eight-hour work day five days a week.” Is this US society breaking down and American peopl…

Yeah agree. After reading more of the article I’m wondering if it’s more of a hit piece than anything else. Az has plenty of semi industry. TSMC may just want to back out. Edit-or maybe TSMC wants pretext for some eventual reason like backlash. Edit 2-or it could merely be an author looking for a story or a competitor looking to smear TSMC. People do have a way of seeming All around horrible until some missing criteria is changed-like better pay or giving them some leeway.

Two things can be true though and may not be related.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#129

Post by dfadsadsf »

quintushoratius wrote: post #116
kamaal wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are long hours, and there are long hours. I consider my self a fairly hard working person, in my first job I've seen situations where people came in on a Monday and would go to their homes next Monday. I've done a full time start up with a day job, quite literally coding every waking hour of my life(like 2 - 4 hours sleep a day) for years. And then I relocated from Bangalore to Bay Area for a while, and met a f…

The people you know worked long hours, but were they actually more productive? Studies on working have consistently shown diminishing returns on longer and longer hours, generally past 30-40, depending on job type, i.e. physical jobs like assembly line work drop of slowly (mistakes rise but only gradually) vs intellectual jobs where mistakes either rise rapidly or people adjust by taking more slack time throughout th…

In all studies that I saw (and there is general lack of quality studies in that area - hard to set up realistic A/B experiment and observational data get you only so far) while average productivity dropped after 40h there were outliers (~10%) with no drop in productivity or increase in error rate with 60h/week. There is good chance that in elite job in Asia (and TSMC is definitely elite) almost everyone is in that category - can work very long hours without burning out. People who could not are either pushed out or leave on their own.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#130

Post by PragmaticPulp »

ascar wrote: post #98
deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

> Different positions may have different requirements, so work hours vary, according to the principal engineer. “An equipment engineer might start work at 8 o’clock in the morning and leave around 9 o’clock at night, but is it normal? This may happen two or three days a week. On a production line, the equipment must be maintained.” > “If you are a process engineer, it will be more stable. Maybe you can start work at…

> As an European these hours would be completely unacceptable to me unless it's 3 days on 4 days off, which it doesn't seem to be.

Americans aren’t interested in 13 hour shifts, either, unless the pay is extraordinarily high.

I agree: Something is missing from this article. If they’re running 3-on, 4-off schedules with these hours, that’s one thing. But if they’re asking 13-hour days and 5-day weeks then it’s an open and shut case: Their jobs are a poor value proposition and people will (rightly) leave.

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