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TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

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Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#101

Post by ratww »

tester34 wrote: post #68
mjevans wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably yes. Major manufacturing sites are often CONTINUOUSLY (24/365.25+) staffed with "12 hour" shifts that include overlap via a lunch and normal breaks making those at least 13 hours of on site time long. One body slot takes 4 people to fill that way, but that leaves zero slack for vacation, sick days, etc.

but of course 3/4 days a week those 12-13h? I worked in system like this and I actually loved that, especially that those were night shifts I'd really take 3(+1)x 12h nights over 5x 8h

Same. Just having free days that are not weekends is amazing.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#102

Post by raverbashing »

bob1029 wrote: post #95
deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

Many moons ago I used to work inside a samsung fab. At no point was I ever feeling a sense of outrage regarding having a literal 80s-style pager strapped to my body 24/7/365. A big part of why this didnt bother me was the scale/impact of what I was doing - I was responsible for the primary business interface used across the entire factory floor. Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a de…

Yeah, but it's not only "the mission", it's your relationships with managers/colleagues, the environment, the perks, etc

That being said, being on call is not for everybody, and a well managed planning goes a long way. It's one thing to be called for a true emergency, another because a colleague doesn't know how to turn on a monitor or because someone did something stupid on a weekend (extreme example)

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#103

Post by xattt »

ascar wrote: post #98
deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

> Different positions may have different requirements, so work hours vary, according to the principal engineer. “An equipment engineer might start work at 8 o’clock in the morning and leave around 9 o’clock at night, but is it normal? This may happen two or three days a week. On a production line, the equipment must be maintained.” > “If you are a process engineer, it will be more stable. Maybe you can start work at…

What’s different about the way fabs operate in Europe?

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#104

Post by p_l »

xattt wrote: post #103
ascar wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Different positions may have different requirements, so work hours vary, according to the principal engineer. “An equipment engineer might start work at 8 o’clock in the morning and leave around 9 o’clock at night, but is it normal? This may happen two or three days a week. On a production line, the equipment must be maintained.” > “If you are a process engineer, it will be more stable. Maybe you can start work at…

What’s different about the way fabs operate in Europe?

Fabs tend to be the kind of workplace where certain optimizations regarding employment law don't work well (i.e. no hiring everyone as contractor)[0], and that means dealing with employment law that has no concept of "overtime exempt" and often strong requirements on things like "maximum hours per week including overtime".

[0] Hiring as permanent employee vs fictitious "B2B" contracting can have different trade offs to employer, and while the later is cheaper in terms of wages, things like due diligence or contractual responsibility to customers/suppliers might be easier with permanent workers.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#105

Post by ascar »

xattt wrote: post #103
ascar wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Different positions may have different requirements, so work hours vary, according to the principal engineer. “An equipment engineer might start work at 8 o’clock in the morning and leave around 9 o’clock at night, but is it normal? This may happen two or three days a week. On a production line, the equipment must be maintained.” > “If you are a process engineer, it will be more stable. Maybe you can start work at…

What’s different about the way fabs operate in Europe?

It's not about the way fabs operate, but about work laws and culture. If you need your employees to work in 12 hour shifts to keep the fab running then hire enough employees so they can still have a <=40 hour week, i.e. only work 3 days a week. Or (which is afaik the default in Germany) run the fab with three 8 hour shifts per day.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#106

Post by arethuza »

Karupan wrote: post #15
PKop wrote: post #5

12 hour days. Sounds pretty dystopian. Guess there's a reason Taiwan has the lowest birthrate in the world. Working themselves into oblivion.

> 12 hour days. Sounds pretty dystopian And quite common in certain industries. I have relatives in oil rigs and aircraft maintenance who work 12 hour shifts 4 days a week. But they do usually get 3 day weekends and other perks.

In the UK North Sea, two weeks on and two weeks off certainly used to be standard on the rigs, fisherman would often be at sea Sunday evening to Thursday or Friday every week.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#107

Post by ianai »

bob1029 wrote: post #95
deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

Many moons ago I used to work inside a samsung fab. At no point was I ever feeling a sense of outrage regarding having a literal 80s-style pager strapped to my body 24/7/365. A big part of why this didnt bother me was the scale/impact of what I was doing - I was responsible for the primary business interface used across the entire factory floor. Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a de…

Sounds like you did eventually leave it. You communicated to me why you wanted to work there very well. What led you to leave?

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#108

Post by ianai »

Edman274 wrote: post #67
deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

1. A global pandemic that has resulted in 4.5 million people quitting their jobs in the United States in the last month has resulted in people leaving jobs with long shifts. I bet that this has also affected people in TSMC fabrication plants. 2. It is possible that being on call at Intel requires fewer hours of attention than being on call at TSMC. It is also possible that Intel is offering higher starting salaries t…

Right. I’m hearing US citizens have become “practically ungovernable.” I’ve definitely experienced people acting with more hostility and clear inner turmoil just out running errands than ever before now. And this is enough to shock me after living a decade in one of the most hostile, large metropolitans in the US.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#110

Post by ksec »

sverhagen wrote: post #41

So, they spoke with one anonymous staff member, and then sourced, wait for it... Glassdoor. I'm not saying these claims are untrue or that they even seem untrue, but it's still squeezing an article out of... not a whole lot. Glassdoor doesn't have a reputation (in my circles) for "balanced opinions".

The "exact" same comment has been circulating since late 2020 before it even appeared on Glassdoor. I mean I even wrote about it on HN [1] twenty days before hand. And my knowledge of it didn't came from Glassdoor.

At first I thought it could be some sort of smear / PR campaign. But given the time it took to MSM media this doesn't seems to be the case. And yes work culture is quite different, you are expected long hours in TSMC ( It is well known within Taiwan ), but it is not "that" much different to working in Samsung or Intel Foundry. As deepnotderp pointed out in the current top post. You want to catch up to the world's leading edge TSMC foundry? You work hard! You dont want Intel and Samsung to catch up to TSMC, you work harder.

In many cases, I found people often dont appreciate the pathetic small amount of money they paid for something that is at the leading edge of science and engineering.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29583206

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