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TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

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Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#111

Post by gspr »

kamaal wrote: post #66
deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

There are long hours, and there are long hours. I consider my self a fairly hard working person, in my first job I've seen situations where people came in on a Monday and would go to their homes next Monday. I've done a full time start up with a day job, quite literally coding every waking hour of my life(like 2 - 4 hours sleep a day) for years. And then I relocated from Bangalore to Bay Area for a while, and met a f…

> Im in serious awe of the Chinese culture.

Based on what you just described?! I'm sure there are many great reasons to be in awe of Chinese culture, but what you just described sounds like an absolute nightmare. How is this stuff a positive thing? How is this person anything more than a work machine? What's the point of their life at that point?

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#112

Post by gspr »

arethuza wrote: post #106
Karupan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 12 hour days. Sounds pretty dystopian And quite common in certain industries. I have relatives in oil rigs and aircraft maintenance who work 12 hour shifts 4 days a week. But they do usually get 3 day weekends and other perks.

In the UK North Sea, two weeks on and two weeks off certainly used to be standard on the rigs, fisherman would often be at sea Sunday evening to Thursday or Friday every week.

But this is clearly not what the GP post was getting at.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#113

Post by simonh »

bob1029 wrote: post #95
deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

Many moons ago I used to work inside a samsung fab. At no point was I ever feeling a sense of outrage regarding having a literal 80s-style pager strapped to my body 24/7/365. A big part of why this didnt bother me was the scale/impact of what I was doing - I was responsible for the primary business interface used across the entire factory floor. Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a de…

It does sound like an outlier in terms of demand, but to back up your point, there are many industries in which there is critical infrastructure and activities going on potentially 24x7 most of not all weeks.

I support financial applications that could be considered critical infrastructure for the country. To the point where the government has set up special regulatory procedures to ensure it’s managed properly. We make sure everyone we hire in the support roles understands that this job isn’t for everyone, there’s work that needs to be done at possibly any hour of any day, and while we have offshore teams there can still be gaps due to sickness, power cuts, etc. we have in depth on call rotas. We pay overtime and on call supplements.

Even outside IT, there are power stations and telecoms systems, water mains, TV and radio stations, who knows what else that operate round the clock, round the year. There are a lot of people in every nation that work these kinds of jobs.

A standard expectation of 11 or 12 hour days is extreme though. No company should plan their operations around that as a standard practice. I’ve worked a 70+ hour week before when there’s been a proper crisis going on though. I got paid for every hour, and I know my work is appreciated so there should be a nice bonus on the way in a few months.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#114

Post by throwaway2037 »

bsder wrote: post #44
PKop wrote: post #5

12 hour days. Sounds pretty dystopian. Guess there's a reason Taiwan has the lowest birthrate in the world. Working themselves into oblivion.

Nor even terribly unusual--even in US manufacturing. Longer than 8 hour shifts is simply a matter of scheduling--you then wind up doing things like 4 days on/3 days off. However, when you pass 40 hours, you owe people overtime in the US. I imagine that TSMC isn't particular stringent about documenting that in Taiwan.

You wrote: > In the United States, this is not true for the _vast_ majority of salaried knowledge workers. Do you have a source... or is this just a guess? We are not talking about people working in logistics -- driving trucks, working at a warehouse. They will be hourly wage workers and have overtime.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#115

Post by Beldin »

Karupan wrote: post #15
PKop wrote: post #5

12 hour days. Sounds pretty dystopian. Guess there's a reason Taiwan has the lowest birthrate in the world. Working themselves into oblivion.

> 12 hour days. Sounds pretty dystopian And quite common in certain industries. I have relatives in oil rigs and aircraft maintenance who work 12 hour shifts 4 days a week. But they do usually get 3 day weekends and other perks.

Around here, in certain areas, full-time is 36hrs. You can arrange to do 4 days of 9 hours each and have 3-day weekends.

12 hour days may be reasonable in certain situations, but "3 day weekend" doesn't sound like nearly enough of a perk.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#116

Post by quintushoratius »

kamaal wrote: post #66
deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

There are long hours, and there are long hours. I consider my self a fairly hard working person, in my first job I've seen situations where people came in on a Monday and would go to their homes next Monday. I've done a full time start up with a day job, quite literally coding every waking hour of my life(like 2 - 4 hours sleep a day) for years. And then I relocated from Bangalore to Bay Area for a while, and met a f…

The people you know worked long hours, but were they actually more productive?

Studies on working have consistently shown diminishing returns on longer and longer hours, generally past 30-40, depending on job type, i.e. physical jobs like assembly line work drop of slowly (mistakes rise but only gradually) vs intellectual jobs where mistakes either rise rapidly or people adjust by taking more slack time throughout the shift.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#117

Post by chrisjc »

analognoise wrote: post #62
atty wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? No. The reason they got ahead was because their business model got them volume production on a scale that let them tweak and improve their process faster and more efficiently compared to the competition. And Intel shooting themselves in the foot and skipping EUV for their last few nodes was a big factor too. Also, suggesting people are “weak” or “strong” based on the number of hours they’re willing/able to work…

Because we're all done with that "grind culture" bullshit, 100%, and we're finally calling it out for what it is.

Who's "we're"? There will always be those willing to embrace the "grind culture". Whether it's new grads eager for experience, those that have experienced life without opportunity and "freedom" or just those desperate to make ends meet.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#118

Post by lotsofpulp »

ianai wrote: post #108
Edman274 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. A global pandemic that has resulted in 4.5 million people quitting their jobs in the United States in the last month has resulted in people leaving jobs with long shifts. I bet that this has also affected people in TSMC fabrication plants. 2. It is possible that being on call at Intel requires fewer hours of attention than being on call at TSMC. It is also possible that Intel is offering higher starting salaries t…

Right. I’m hearing US citizens have become “practically ungovernable.” I’ve definitely experienced people acting with more hostility and clear inner turmoil just out running errands than ever before now. And this is enough to shock me after living a decade in one of the most hostile, large metropolitans in the US.

I am hearing that employers in the US are no longer able to negotiate the low pay per hours of work, often at undesirable times of the day and week and year, that they used to be able to demand.

The type of work described in the article has a reputation of low pay per hour and being undesirable.

> TSMC will have to change to an eight-hour work day five days a week.”

Is this US society breaking down and American people being “ungovernable”? Or is it people being able to negotiate reasonable pay to working conditions ratios?

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#119

Post by pixl97 »

random12345678 wrote: post #23
rjzzleep wrote: post #6

Very interesting. Yeah labour is cheap in Taiwan. Even highly qualified, specialized labour. That's why talent leaves to China, USA and Israel. But about the factory itself, American Factory was quite interesting[1]. Chinese company, but similar culture clash. It is interesting however that from what I have seen Europeans that wouldn't lift a finger on a weekend would expect Taiwanese to have results on Monday mornin…

The level of entitlement from Westerners is unreal. "You can't have your cake and eat it too"

Heh, you're forgetting how well it went last time someone said "let them eat cake"

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#120

Post by api »

deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

My brother in law worked in steel for years. Being on call and doing everything to avoid downtime was totally normal and he has tons of entertaining war stories.

If they are having issues with this it sounds like a management problem.

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