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Lawsuit filed alleging Google is paying Apple to stay out of the search business

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Re: Lawsuit filed alleging Google is paying Apple to stay out of the search business

#51

Post by londons_explore »

sfe22 wrote: post #41
londons_explore wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $20B. It is hard to believe that this payment is just for being the default search engine. Well ask yourself what the value of this placement is? Google earns about $200 per user, mostly in ad revenue. If Google search wasn't default, they'd probably lose half the users. There are 1 billion iPhone users. At $200 each, Google stands to loose $200b. So a price tag of $20b to keep that...

Are you sure that 200 usd is worldwide? Seems like US only

The number is higher in the US and lower in the rest of the world. But iPhones are more heavily skewed to US users. I picked $200 as a good ballpark.

Re: Lawsuit filed alleging Google is paying Apple to stay out of the search business

#52

Post by headmelted »

dpark wrote: post #17

”The complaint claims that the means used to effectuate the non-compete agreement included; (1) Google would share it's search profits with Apple; (2) Apple would give preferential treatment to Google for all Apple devices; (3) regular secret meetings between the executives of both companies; (4) annual multi-billion-dollar payments by Google to Apple not to compete in the search business; (5) suppression of the comp…

This.

I always sort of hoped that Apple would either enter the market at some point or acquire DuckDuckGo and try to build out to a larger user base. I realise this is pretty unrealistic, as I'm sure there are far more people out there who would much prefer DDG to remain independent of a megacorp.

I assumed the reason Apple haven't entered the market is that there's likely no way to make money at it without becoming Google, so it would cause them to have two diametrically opposed privacy stances in their business (and because they'd have a long road to build a worthy competitor).

Re: Lawsuit filed alleging Google is paying Apple to stay out of the search business

#53

Post by rekoil »

Lio wrote: post #24
dpark wrote: post #17

”The complaint claims that the means used to effectuate the non-compete agreement included; (1) Google would share it's search profits with Apple; (2) Apple would give preferential treatment to Google for all Apple devices; (3) regular secret meetings between the executives of both companies; (4) annual multi-billion-dollar payments by Google to Apple not to compete in the search business; (5) suppression of the comp…

#5 is the key point to my mind. For example, you can’t just add new search engines to iOS Safari with just a URL. There are a few alternatives to Google but there’s no easy way for a new entrant to get in there. EDIT: Interesting. I’m picking up downvotes for this, is there some way to achieve this (other than jailbreaking) I’ve missed?

I can't believe I've never considered this. They really should have a "custom" option in there as well.

Is it possible to do using .mobileconfig profiles maybe?

(Off topic: Is there a specification somewhere on what's possible using .mobileconfig profiles?)

Re: Lawsuit filed alleging Google is paying Apple to stay out of the search business

#54

Post by cornel_io »

hetspookjee wrote: post #43
tut-urut-utut wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you get downvotes, this is true, at least for iOS. There's no way a user can add a new search engine, they can only choose one of the five choices.

I'm so happy that Apple keeps me safe of dangerous search engines. /s I don't get this logic, honestly. What is the point of not being able to add any and all search engines to Apple?

Apple hates any sort of technical customization in their mass-market products. They always have, and keep stripping them down to the most dumbed-down settings screens they can figure out while still allowing the bare necessities (which they apparently don't consider adding an alternative search engine to be).

I don't like this approach, but it is very consistent in their products, features tend to disappear over time and new ones only pop up if they're very sexy and can be announced on-stage.

Re: Lawsuit filed alleging Google is paying Apple to stay out of the search business

#55

Post by pdpi »

JimDabell wrote: post #35
littlecranky67 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Google pays Apple to be the default search provider" If that is the case they might not act anti-competetive but, rumours are [0] Apple received up to $20Bn per year in this deal. It is hard to believe that this payment is just for being the default search engine. I strongly suspect that Apple also agrees to not build their own search engine as long as this deal is on - and if that is the case, there will be a str…

> It is hard to believe that this payment is just for being the default search engine. I strongly suspect that Apple also agrees to not build their own search engine as long as this deal is on In practical terms, if Apple launched a search engine that wasn’t the default, would it see much uptake? It seems to me that Google don’t need an agreement for that.

This is Apple we’re talking about. That search engine would be a skunkworks project for several years and rapidly become the default soon after release.

Presumably, what Google gets out of this is the assurance that no such skunkworks project exists.

Re: Lawsuit filed alleging Google is paying Apple to stay out of the search business

#56

Post by rekoil »

hetspookjee wrote: post #43
tut-urut-utut wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you get downvotes, this is true, at least for iOS. There's no way a user can add a new search engine, they can only choose one of the five choices.

I'm so happy that Apple keeps me safe of dangerous search engines. /s I don't get this logic, honestly. What is the point of not being able to add any and all search engines to Apple?

UI clutter, but I completely agree with you, in this instance it is 100% warranted.

Re: Lawsuit filed alleging Google is paying Apple to stay out of the search business

#57

Post by onion2k »

dpark wrote: post #17

”The complaint claims that the means used to effectuate the non-compete agreement included; (1) Google would share it's search profits with Apple; (2) Apple would give preferential treatment to Google for all Apple devices; (3) regular secret meetings between the executives of both companies; (4) annual multi-billion-dollar payments by Google to Apple not to compete in the search business; (5) suppression of the comp…

The alternative option seems to be that Apple is for some reason required to use their position to enter the search market.

Why is that the alternative? No one is saying Apple have to provide their own search engine; people are suggesting Mac products should give the user a clear choice.

A much more obvious alternative is that Apple (or any OS provider for that matter) shouldn't be able to sell the default search engine option on their products to the highest bidder without making it easy to change. When Microsoft lost their IE law suit they added a simple set of options to Windows as part of setup to pick a browser. Apple could do the same for search engines.

You could read the current situation as Apple using their position as the only provider of Mac OS software to make $20bn/year by refusing to give users a choice of search provider. It doesn't really matter that the search is a separate company - the issue is lack of choice that distorts the market in favor of two companies (Apple and Google) rather than consumers. That's bait for anti-trust lawyers.

Re: Lawsuit filed alleging Google is paying Apple to stay out of the search business

#58

Post by mgh2 »

headmelted wrote: post #52
dpark wrote: post #17

”The complaint claims that the means used to effectuate the non-compete agreement included; (1) Google would share it's search profits with Apple; (2) Apple would give preferential treatment to Google for all Apple devices; (3) regular secret meetings between the executives of both companies; (4) annual multi-billion-dollar payments by Google to Apple not to compete in the search business; (5) suppression of the comp…

This. I always sort of hoped that Apple would either enter the market at some point or acquire DuckDuckGo and try to build out to a larger user base. I realise this is pretty unrealistic, as I'm sure there are far more people out there who would much prefer DDG to remain independent of a megacorp. I assumed the reason Apple haven't entered the market is that there's likely no way to make money at it without becoming…

Is there a way to run a profitable search engine without relying on advertising?

Ex: Cloud search - https://aws.amazon.com/cloudsearch/

Re: Lawsuit filed alleging Google is paying Apple to stay out of the search business

#59

Post by josefx »

mrtksn wrote: post #30
heavyset_go wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has 60% of the mobile market in the US[1], and more than double the revenue from their dominant stake in the mobile app distribution market than Google[2], both off which make up over 99% of that market. Also, our layman definitions of monopoly do not matter when it comes to antitrust laws[3]: > Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthan…

As we are not in a court in here, only the laymen opinion is relevant as it is impossible to make a strict legal discussion without having a strict legal process. I would say, Apple is very popular in the US but I don't see how it can be a monopoly when you can just order another device from Amazon and that device being just good or maybe better. In many other rich countries, people are choosing Samsung, Americans ca…

> As we are not in a court in here, only the laymen opinion is relevant as it is impossible to make a strict legal discussion without having a strict legal process.

I would love to make this argument the next time vaccines are mentioned. Remember vaccines cause autism and turn the frogs gay. Any attempt to correct this using medical jargon or methods is literally out of scope for the average hacker news commenter and should be avoided.

Re: Lawsuit filed alleging Google is paying Apple to stay out of the search business

#60

Post by pdpi »

sfe22 wrote: post #41
londons_explore wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $20B. It is hard to believe that this payment is just for being the default search engine. Well ask yourself what the value of this placement is? Google earns about $200 per user, mostly in ad revenue. If Google search wasn't default, they'd probably lose half the users. There are 1 billion iPhone users. At $200 each, Google stands to loose $200b. So a price tag of $20b to keep that...

Are you sure that 200 usd is worldwide? Seems like US only

At 10 cents per ad print, that’s only 2000 impressions, around 6 per day. Certainly sounds in the higher side of feasible. If the deal is for $20B, break even is a tenth that though, so there’s a lot of margin for error while still claiming enormous financial benefits.
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