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No Way to Grow Up

nytimes.com

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Re: No Way to Grow Up

#151

Post by Apocryphon »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #148
animal_spirits wrote: post #5

> For the past two years, Americans have accepted more harm to children in exchange for less harm to adults. At first we didn't know how much harm the virus would cause to children. But now that we see it is much less dangerous for them we shouldn't be preventing them from learning because we are afraid of getting sick. The children are the future, and in order to secure a positive growth in society it is our obligat…

"Children are our future and you should be prepared to accept arbitrary Covid consequences for them" might be a compelling argument on an orange web site, but it is not going to be one when you present it to over-worked, under-appreciated teachers who have families of their own and their futures to worry about. Bringing back pensions and providing free post-retirement healthcare for teachers and their families will b…

Hell, increase their current healthcare benefits if they're to teach during this crisis.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#153

Post by woodruffw »

civilized wrote: post #50
woodruffw wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reasoning here is flawed: we had early positive evidence that COVID-19 was particularly dangerous for the elderly and those with a variety of medical preconditions. We didn't have positive or negative evidence that children weren't an at-risk group (for any number of reasons: lack of case evidence, the fact that children can't be modeled medically as adults, etc.). Instead, we applied the lessons of the common fl…

No. As the article explains, this uncertainty might explain at most a couple months of the initial response. It was very obvious, very early, that the risk to children was low and did not fit the age profile of the flu. Nearly all the debate around closing schools was in regards to their role as general transmission hubs (many argued that kids didn't even transmit COVID enough to worry about) and the risk to teachers…

You've performed a very subtle conversational pivot here: I didn't assert that COVID is more deadly to children, or that public policy was structured around that hypothesis. I said that we didn't know how dangerous it was and that, among other things, treating COVID as potentially flu-like in young children was a reasonable policy.

When it became clear that children weren't dying in large numbers from COVID, keeping them out of school throughout 2020 because of the transmission theory was (and may still be, depending on other circumstances) sufficient justification.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#154

Post by CountDrewku »

datavirtue wrote: post #103
superfrank wrote: post #18

I'm not sure I like this article. They seems to overstate what the sources they link to claim. For example the article says > Some researchers are skeptical that school closures reduce Covid cases in most instances. But when you go to the study they link, it says > Although school closures reduce the number of contacts children have, and may decrease transmission, a study of 12 million adults in the UK found no diffe…

There is a dangerous level of cognitive dissonance around school closures that effects nearly everyone. I have to filter arguments by finding out if the people making them have or do not have kids in school. People with kids in school just want schools open. Teachers and administrators want schools open. ...and therefore politicians want schools open. There are a lot of vested interests that bias toward opening schoo…

>Teachers and administrators want schools open. ...and therefore politicians want schools open.

This is just false. The largest teacher unions in the country have been pushing school closures. This means many teachers, administrators and politicians also want school closures.

Until like the last week politicians have been reluctant to even suggest schools reopen

https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-teachers-unions-odds-over-20482...

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#155

Post by SavantIdiot »

yupper32 wrote: post #99

Honest question: At what point do we give up? I'm in the Bay Area and it'll be coming up on 2 years soon of what basically amounts to a social shut down. -- Many social groups are just not getting together anymore, including most of mine. -- Concerts, sporting events, parties of most sizes, crowded bars/clubs just seem off the table at this point. -- Masks for the majority of it, which makes gym going and working out…

I read somewhere that a pandemic becomes an endemic when we agree on how many people we can accept dying each year.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#156

Post by vitro »

_jal wrote: post #54
superfrank wrote: post #18

I'm not sure I like this article. They seems to overstate what the sources they link to claim. For example the article says > Some researchers are skeptical that school closures reduce Covid cases in most instances. But when you go to the study they link, it says > Although school closures reduce the number of contacts children have, and may decrease transmission, a study of 12 million adults in the UK found no diffe…

There appears to be a weird blind-spot when discussing COVID outcomes - anything short of death appears to be discounted or ignored. So hospital issues, long COVID, etc. just don't exist, so catching it either didn't matter or you're dead. On a planet where that was true, that sort of reasoning would make sense. (As it does if you're trying to encourage other people to ignore risks.) What I don't understand is why so…

The quora answer [1] by Franklin Veaux to question "How can a disease with 1% mortality shut down the United States?" explains nicely that it is not binary live/die at all. Mind though that this was written in the beginning of the pandemic when we didn't have the same information as now, so numbers may be imprecise, but the explanation still stands.

https://www.quora.com/How-can-a-disease-with-1-mortality-shu...

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#157

Post by tschwimmer »

throwawayboise wrote: post #4

I am very thankful that my youngest graduated high school in 2020. The last couple of months were screwed up, but there wasn't much real education lost by then; most seniors pretty much check out after Spring Break anyway. I really feel for the kids who are younger. The effects of this are going to be with us for decades.

I have some bad news for you: if your child is college bound then they are about to go into another environment that has been profoundly damaged by the pandemic: a college campus. Students at my university are angry and depressed about the fact that they're paying thousands of dollars for glorified university of Phoenix. The college social scene is also obviously heavily disrupted, which is probably an underappreciated factor in the development of young people.

If I were of college age and was able, I'd take a gap year or two without any hesitation.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#158

Post by droopyEyelids »

superfrank wrote: post #18

I'm not sure I like this article. They seems to overstate what the sources they link to claim. For example the article says > Some researchers are skeptical that school closures reduce Covid cases in most instances. But when you go to the study they link, it says > Although school closures reduce the number of contacts children have, and may decrease transmission, a study of 12 million adults in the UK found no diffe…

The part about the under-20-year-old children who fell to gun violence in Chicago raised my eye. Thats a problem but I don't know it's a covid problem, and I'm not certain that people over 18 count as children.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#159

Post by renewiltord »

_jal wrote: post #54
superfrank wrote: post #18

I'm not sure I like this article. They seems to overstate what the sources they link to claim. For example the article says > Some researchers are skeptical that school closures reduce Covid cases in most instances. But when you go to the study they link, it says > Although school closures reduce the number of contacts children have, and may decrease transmission, a study of 12 million adults in the UK found no diffe…

There appears to be a weird blind-spot when discussing COVID outcomes - anything short of death appears to be discounted or ignored. So hospital issues, long COVID, etc. just don't exist, so catching it either didn't matter or you're dead. On a planet where that was true, that sort of reasoning would make sense. (As it does if you're trying to encourage other people to ignore risks.) What I don't understand is why so…

Well, the ideal outcome is to use the QALYs (or NHS Adjusted QALYs) to inform discussion, but it is considered a bit gauche (perhaps unfortunately for informed policy making) to identify that maybe the whole and absolute death of an 80 year old with emphysema isn't nearly as significant as some amount of disability to a 25 year old.

i.e. there is a one-way ratchet on these measures since one direction is gated by the "trade grandma for a dollar" line.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#160

Post by scottlamb »

babyblueblanket wrote: post #9

Are there any teachers who can really talk about solutions to the problems covid presents? Rather seriously, of what I can find anecdotally online (as I know no teachers IRL) that even trying to have in-person classes haven't really helped, because parents pull their kids out of class or a significant chunk misses school due to being out sick/quarantine and now the entire lesson plan is screwed up.

I'm a parent, not a teacher, but my public school has gone through three phases of the pandemic since my son entered kindergarten:

1. Beginning of last school year: entirely remote. (Except for some children of essential workers; they were in a computer lab-like setting. In many cases they were in their regular school's classrooms, but not the same ones as their teachers, and the other kids in the room would be in different Zoom classes.) This was awful for the standpoint of learning or child care. Adults can barely stand Zoom for that long. I did my best to help my son keep focused, but it didn't work that well, and it came at the expense of my focus on my own work. I have a friend who just pulled her kids from public school for this time and went full-on home-schooling. She said the whole family's mental health and the educational experience greatly improved.

2. End of last school year: most kids in the classroom most days, a few unlucky ones still fully remote due to classroom size limits not actually recommended by the CDC, everyone on Zoom. The classroom is basically a computer lab, but now at least everyone in the room is doing the same thing. Obviously this was better for (most of) the parents, and a little better socially for (most of) the kids, but I think still pretty lousy for learning. The experience wasn't as engaging for the kids as it'd normally be, and the teacher has lost the parents who to varying extents helped keep the kids focused in phase #1.

3. This school year: kids in the classroom, wearing masks, getting weekly pooled COVID tests. If the pool tests positive, everyone gets tested individually and (for 10 days) goes into a "modified quarantine". Under those rules, kids who haven't individually tested positive can be in the classroom with the kids who have already been exposed to the same thing, but no after-school programs or extracurriculars or the like.

I of course hated phase #1 and #2, and I think they far outlasted any reasonable belief they were worthwhile. Phase #3 seems like a more reasonable compromise. I'm sure learning would be better if everything were normal, but this isn't as obviously harmful as phases #1 and #2 were. My son is definitely learning things at school. I don't know how much compared to a normal year. I too would love to hear a frank teacher's perspective on this.

I live in an area where the case rates have been relatively low, which obviously helps. Less disruption due to sickness/quarantine.

I wouldn't mind moving on to phase #4 where school-aged kids must have the COVID vaccine (along with the many other vaccines that are already required) and school goes back to normal. Schools should be fully open before restaurants and bars and the like.

My daughter's pre-K and too young for the vaccine but that's another story.

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