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Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

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Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#811
post #786

I'm loving reading through all of the sickening puff pieces that business/tech journalists put out about her and Theranos. It's funny to think back to 2015 and the hagiographical void still left in tech journo hearts after Steve Jobs died. https://www.inc.com/ilan-mochari/elizabeth-holmes-theranos-i... > How Elizabeth Holmes Became America's New Entrepreneurial Icon > She represents the part of entrepreneurship that…

I do feel sorry for her in a way. She was riding a treadmill of expectations. Started off slowly, probably thinking "yeah, we can do this" and by the time the treadmill was moving at light speed, it was too late to get off. Even TED has removed her talk from YouTube. What responsibility do the media bear when their shallow hype turns out to be false and damaging to all parties?

> She was riding a treadmill of expectations. Started off slowly, probably thinking "yeah, we can do this" and by the time the treadmill was moving at light speed, it was too late to get off.

She absolutely was not. It was completely obvious to anyone with any knowledge of the subject that what she was doing was fraudulent.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#812
post #805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A16z didn't invest in Theranos, did Marc personally invest or what is the conflict?

The article hypes five founders, one definitely was funded by A16Z, the others I think were not but I'm not sure. I don't know anything about the Andreessens' personal investments but just as a general rule you might question the propriety of someone that close to the VC money using your storied newspaper to promote startup founders. I'm not going to hold up the NYT as some bastion of journalistic ethics, but still.…

Hyping founders you _didn't_ invest in is sort of the opposite of nepotism though.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once it was clear this wouldn't go away quietly, I'd bet they pushed hard to ensure criminal prosecution. You're saying that Mattis, Cohen, etc had the ability to influence decisions within Trump's DoJ and exerted that ability in order to ensure that charges were filed against Holmes in 2018? If so, why do you think this?

You don't even have to influence. DoJ is naturally going to take interest when a huge startup that has the Secretary of Defense on the board goes belly up.

Mattis left the Theranos board when he became SecDef and as such was not a board member when charges were filed in 2018.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#814

Ironic that her board of directors-- one of the most praised aspects of Theranos-- probably hurt her when it came to going after her with criminal charges. These were some of the most well-connected people in the country, and making them look like fools did her no favors. Once it was clear this wouldn't go away quietly, I'd bet they pushed hard to ensure criminal prosecution. (which I think she deserved anyway.) Espe…

Kissinger is known for his war crimes and Nobel Peace Prize. Being associated with this fraud is not a stain on his reputation at all. They joined because they thought they were going to make a lot of money.

Kissinger also has the fame of being the first Nobel Peace Prize recipient to bomb another Nobel Peace Prize recipient:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/doctors-without-borders-bombi...

More on Kissinger war crimes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_of_Henry_Kissinger

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#816

I wonder what parallels we can draw between Holmes and her blood testing, with Elon and full self driving. I suppose Elon has covered his bases by saying it is still a work in progress while charging for it, but he has also been saying it will be ready in about a year or two since 2016. I think the FSD research Tesla is doing is interesting, but man I would rather all of that money gone into a carbon fiber roof or so…

Consider the James Webb Space Telescope. Are the engineers working on it frauds because it’s been delayed for years? No, they have legitimately been trying their best despite leadership committing to dates.

Theranos would be if JWST took taxpayer dollars and launched a non working telescope and sent back fake images.

Tesla with FSD is a lot more like the JWST being delayed, or perhaps if they launched a stripped down version to space and then delayed the real thing.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#817
post #767

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a pretty sharp line separating what Holmes tried, and what legitimate startups do. What she claimed had no basis in reality. It's Borat trying to patent a hoverboard, just like in Back to the Future, and telling the VC that he "needs to come up with the science" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXuDhejxz_c ). Except that Holmes was worse, claiming that she had the science. And she insulated herself…

I haven't read Carreyrou's book, but do you think age and stereotypical gender roles played a part in the swindle? In other words, did the "old powerful men" let their guard down more because she was a young female?

Absolutely. It is hard for me to believe that Holmes didn't intentionally seek out powerful, influential yet clueless men. The fact that she had connections to them certainly made things simpler.

I remember first hearing about Theranos in the New Yorker profile of Holmes. The presence of Schultz, Kissinger and other non-scientist powerful old men struck me as extremely odd at the time. And given her youth and appearance, it is impossible not to speculate about her effect on them, intentional or not.

Also, the book made it very clear that Schultz's judgement was clouded by personal feelings. He blew up his relationship with his grandson over his defense of Holmes; the grandson saw what was going on.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#818
post #789

I'm loving reading through all of the sickening puff pieces that business/tech journalists put out about her and Theranos. It's funny to think back to 2015 and the hagiographical void still left in tech journo hearts after Steve Jobs died. https://www.inc.com/ilan-mochari/elizabeth-holmes-theranos-i... > How Elizabeth Holmes Became America's New Entrepreneurial Icon > She represents the part of entrepreneurship that…

> She only pauses in her work to run — seven miles a day. -- Laura Arrillaga-Andreessen, yes that Andreessen, writing in the New York Times Magazine about Visionary Tech Entrepreneurs with, um, no conflict of interest whatsoever I'm sure. Turns out Palantir's Alex Karp was also "harnessing goodness through technology." No idea how she missed Adam Neumann. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/12/t-magazine/el..…

I think you ought to actually explain the conflict of interest.

I'm trying to find a clear connection between Theranos and Andreessen-related investments. I can't find evidence of an actual investment in Theranos.

I'm not trying to dismiss you -- your theory[^1] could very well be totally right and there truly was a conflict [my duck-duck-go-ing skills only go so far]. And yeah, perhaps a person married to a wealthy tech investor ought not write high-profile articles possibly related to their partner's investments, and that publishers should be more wary of publishing such articles.

Yet I do get frustrated seeing these sorts of vague cynical quips levying specific accusations based more upon a gut plausibility of a scenario rather than a clear outline of information. It's easy to throw bread crumbs into a forest and connect them to make a path, but that doesn't mean you've found a useful path.

EDIT: Here is a somewhat-arbitrarily-selected article I found which discusses this topic: https://www.vox.com/2015/10/29/11620186/nyt-public-editor-bl...

[^1]: Technically you wrote that you were sure there was no conflict of interest whatsoever, but surely that was in jest.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#819
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully she'll get more, SV could use a good example. Otherwise it signals that wantrepeneurs can keep doing it with minimal repercussions.

Ok I'm not American so perhaps my perspective is different... More than 10 years would be utterly barbaric. The 65 years mentioned in another comment chain would be well beyond the pale. I'm no fan of Holmes, but what good does it serve to lock up non violent criminals for decades?

Well, frankly sentences in the USA are barbaric. We also have the habit of handing down terms that are impossible to satisfy, eg. for probation. They'll take away your drivers license then tell you to appear in several locations around town to avoid jail (btw a driving infraction isn't always necessary, although even if they did commit a DUI, that doesn't change the practical side). You'll get charged money and taken to jail for being too poor. It's not uncommon to resort to crime to raise money to pay the state to avoid jail.

All that said, I would hope for at least 8-12 years, possibly more. I don't take that sentence lightly and consider it very harsh (I can't stand people from the USA that consider less than 5 years and "easy sentence"). 3 years is a serious sentence, and 8-12 is extremely harsh, for good reason. It's very important to me to call this like it is. There should be heavy handed punishment, because this is among our most serious crimes.

She blatantly lied multiple times about a medical product. She had a team of enforcers harass people who tried to talk. Across the board, it was a very extreme case. More importantly, with so much at stake, these type of white collar crimes are quite frankly worth committing if the sentence is less than 5 years (I'm not sure the exact number, but it's at least 5).

For a substantial portion of the population, having that kind of wealth and influence for a short time is worth it; in some cases, even if you die. So it might not deter everyone, but I do think the possibility of spending lots of time locked up, will stop a lot of gray area people.

I also think it is necessary for fairness. I care about making these crimes "not worth it". At a certain point, you're basically letting people keep their ill gotten gains. Getting to be king for a decade, then go away for a year or two is no punishment at all.

I don't think 10-20 years is necessarily inappropriate.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#820
post #751
post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you haven't yet heard of Elizabeth Holmes, you soon will." And how!

If you just stop reading right there, the article is perfectly cromulent!

For those curious on cromulent:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/what-does-crom...

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