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Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#131

Post by robertlagrant »

toastal wrote: post #80
noduerme wrote: post #67

You hit the nail on the head -- repeatedly. Shit. I just bought my gf a Roku as a stocking stuffer. We were setting it up and it made her put in her email and phone number to verify. I was appalled; I was like don't put in your email! I'll return it! But she wanted be able to watch YouTube on her TV since Apple removed it without warning from her AppleTV device . My own Roku from a couple years ago works great with n…

Roku is now publicly traded so its beholden to getting quarterly value for shareholder. Investors have deemed all of this data collecting valuable. Capitalism killing innovation by making it another homogeneous device that doesn't respect you doesn't surprise me.

> Capitalism killing innovation by making it another homogeneous device that doesn't respect you doesn't surprise me.

What is this weird fascination with capitalism on HN? If a socialist government thought collecting data was a good idea and directed its resources that way, would that okay?

My read is (rightly or wrongly) they want to have cloud services, and cloud services require identification.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#132

Post by ratww »

AstralStorm wrote: post #127
antocv wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically the "my mom" and "but my grandparents" angle is what has always been used to dumb down and introduce user-hostile patterns. Surprise, after 20 years the developers and managers assume they are building software for retarded un-learnable "grandparents and mothers", the end result is well stupid software.

Most of the dark patterns are not due to dumbing down UI. They're either because nothing better is available (security), income would be reduced (ads, cookie warnings, software is deliberately crippled for non-professional versions), development is done by lowest bidder.

Yeah. It would actually be pretty cool if web sites and apps were dumbed down for a few things: denying cookies, deleting accounts, contacting support, unsubscribing from spam.

With dark patterns those things actually become more complicated.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#133

Post by AstralStorm »

PeterisP wrote: post #61
ratww wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's the thing. You can't really fight against results. Putting an annoying modal asking for an email will give you lots of email leads. Sending newsletters will give more returns to the website. Sending desktop notifications whenever there's a new article works and gives more visits. A website that takes 20 seconds to load is not an issue. Advertisements give more than zero moneys. The reason it gives positi…

We can look at earlier consumer-hostile experiences which were generally solved by consumer rights regulations. You can fight against results - lying in advertising by saying that your Patented Snake Oil Tincture cures everything really does "work" and bring in money, but it was stopped by regulation; lying that this knock-off is really SuperBrandItem does work and bring results, but trademark laws significantly redu…

A lot of this is also caused by following the leader. And the leaders are fueled by adtech or spyware...

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#134

Post by yobbo »

The business model is data/network lock-in. Everything is optimized to prevent users from switching, not solving users' problems.

I think it's because users don't pay for anything; it's valuations based on ad exposure, or expectations based on size of user base.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#135

Post by Ensorceled »

antocv wrote: post #110
Ensorceled wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. This is an intensely user hostile view point, ironically enough. "The dark patterns being foisted upon the average user are their own fault, they deserve what they get" In fact, I think this attitude is how the developers and product managers responsible for this stuff sleep at night, "these people deserve this for their moral failing…

Ironically the "my mom" and "but my grandparents" angle is what has always been used to dumb down and introduce user-hostile patterns. Surprise, after 20 years the developers and managers assume they are building software for retarded un-learnable "grandparents and mothers", the end result is well stupid software.

> Ironically the "my mom" and "but my grandparents" angle is what has always been used to dumb down and introduce user-hostile patterns.

Dumbed down and user-hostile are independent things. Dark patterns are being introduced for nefarious purposes. No one is explaining away things like "click to subscribe, wait 3 hours in a phone queue to unsubscribe" as required for "grandmothers"

The software isn't stupid, it's intentionally and cleverly manipulative and user hostile.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#136

Post by AstralStorm »

antocv wrote: post #116
rini17 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, let's say I won't tolerate it. What do I do? crickets And no, average users have never avoided scams, email spam is older than web.

I am not a cricket. I told you what to do, dont use that software, dont accept the license or terms, uninstall, deactivate, deny. Read a book, go hiking. You arent forced to use shit software.

Oh boy, tell me how you do tax reports with the amazing experience of pen, paper and standing in a window. I bet you're outsourcing misery rather than avoiding it.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#137

Post by JKCalhoun »

r_singh wrote: post #14

I think the internet (and its tools) started off with the intention of making the lives of users easier as compared to the alternatives. However, as the internet became mainstream and competitive, more successful players realized that they can employ dark patterns to increase their revenue by taking advantage of users (lock-in, difficulty unsubscribing, making cloud accounts mandatory, etc). It's 2022 and I think all…

> Who do I think is to blame? Investors of all kinds. They are making it harder for entrepreneurs who care about their customers to stay in business by throwing money and exploiting consumers weakness for deals/freebies.

I'm not sure. It might also be the opposite: this might be the precise time for a new business that can cut out all the bullshit and give the users what they want. It's not just the HN crowd that is frustrated with Modern Tech.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#138

Post by Kbelicius »

laurent92 wrote: post #100
antocv wrote: post #22

Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. Nobody is forced to continue using dark-pattern software, nobody was forced to use Apple and tie their credit-card to their "apple cloud account", yet normal users dont see a problem with it at all and just continue even paying for software which is hostile to them and their interests. Your question is like, "Why does DRM exist it is ac…

> and just continue even paying for software which is hostile to them I went Apple precisely because it was not hostile at all compared to Windows and Google’s forest of adware. The minute you give me a non-user hostile OS (phone or desktop), I’ll PAY $300/year for it. But even Ubuntu returned Amazon results when I searched the local application (Don’t get me started on technicalities of “But maybe you want your star…

> It’s time to stop blaming the user and start blaming the EU for their badly-written cookie banner laws.

Are you saying that EU cookie law is to blame for software being hostile to its users? I can't see how that can be.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#139

Post by lucumo »

jenscow wrote: post #57
sigmaprimus wrote: post #2

I agree with most everything you have said but wonder if it is just the internet or everywhere these days. I recently went through a McDonalds drive thru for the first time in a very long time and felt a longing for the old menu boards that had items and prices clearly listed instead of these TV screens with all the items and prices scattered about like a teenage girls dream collage. I walked into a new BestBuy store…

> was unable to have a meaningful conversation as they felt whatever was on their phones was more interesting I hate that. If you're expecting something important - fine, take a quick glance to check, if it vibrates. But don't start scrolling while I'm trying to have a conversation with you. Put it down for 20 minutes, you'll be ok - it will still be on there. > The world got itself in a damn hurry and it seems there…

Meh. Whenever I see such things, it's usually because their interlocutor is boring.

People aren't interesting just because they are people. In fact, most people are boring as hell.

There is such a thing as manners, of course. But that's a two-way street. The other party also has to make an effort to not be boring, and that effort is rarely made either.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#140

Post by ratww »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #122
antocv wrote: post #22

Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. Nobody is forced to continue using dark-pattern software, nobody was forced to use Apple and tie their credit-card to their "apple cloud account", yet normal users dont see a problem with it at all and just continue even paying for software which is hostile to them and their interests. Your question is like, "Why does DRM exist it is ac…

> Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. It's because it's the same kind of users that tolerated such bullshit on TV 20 years ago: 5 ads or more over a 30 minutes show. The truth is: most people are brainlessly consuming any media (be it TV or the Internet or the latest crappy auto-tuned pop song) and are wandering hyperconsumerists souls. 20 years ago it was more complicate…

I think that's a bit unfair.

It's not that the masses wanted that scenario. They would be completely cool with a non-user-hostile TV or web.

It's just that TV channels and internet companies are constantly trying to push as much garbage as they can, and the amount we currently got is the amount they can get away with.

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