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Web3 is centralized

blog.wesleyac.com

351–360 of 497 posts

Re: Web3 is centralized

#351
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it harder to operate in a hostile government with a centralized ledger? Once the government somehow gets a hold of which wallets you use, they will be able to track down all your steps.

I don't about other block chains but that's a problem that Monero has (partially?) solved by tying transactions to two other wallets each transaction so that it is hard to follow your steps. Of course it doesn't solve all other blockchains problems but I would be curious to see it discussed more. The main criticism I have seen about it is that it allows criminality to move funds under the govts radar, which is not a…

> I don't about other block chains but that's a problem that Monero has (partially?) solved by tying transactions to two other wallets each transaction so that it is hard to follow your steps.

I would be very hesitant to recommend that to anyone who lives under an authoritarian regime rather than casually giving you plausible deniability for buying weird porn. Large scale analysis of the entire network will see through noise and I would especially question that being at all effective in an environment where clients are frequently compromised. If you have to worry about serious consequences cash is a lot less risky if for no reason other than that there’s no possible way to retroactively trace an old transaction.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#352
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author doesn't understand the primary goal. It's precisely to have global consensus that proceeds according to its logic - so if you own something it can't be taken away from you. How is global consensus not centralisation though? Humans are notorious for disagreeing on everything. Having one global arbiter of truth/consensus seems implausible at best. Anything that could provide global consensus will need to b…

>How is global consensus not centralisation though? In the same way reality itself is 'centralized'. Global consensus is meant to add a digital layer to reality. Reality is objective by definition. What's subjective is trying to measure it - but this problem doesn't exist for digital systems. >Who would maintain the system for global consensus? The practical implementation has to ensure that (1) consensus is maintain…

> In the same way reality itself is 'centralized'. Global consensus is meant to add a digital layer to reality. Reality is objective by definition. What's subjective is trying to measure it - but this problem doesn't exist for digital systems.

This was always going to get philosophical fast, but I don't think reality is strictly objective. At least not the representation of it we humans create to understand it. Look at the constant evolution of our understanding of the universe (and those who inhabit it). If we were to describe that as objective truth, it would be unquestionable. Instead the scientific method asks us to consider it as the best answer we have currently, until new evidence emerges.

I agree measuring reality is subjective, but thats the only way we can interpret it. Our eyes even lie to us to make up for deficiencies, for example your blind spot.

The key point here is underlying our shared reality is a shared truth. But neither of these are shared by everyone, and it's almost always too nuanced to pick one side and declare that the objective truth. Epistemology is centered around this challenge.

> (1) consensus is maintained by a diverse set of potentially anonymous participants. Ideally, this would mean literally all humans, but that's of course impossible. The set should be large and diverse enough so that even powerful actors (especially governments) have no ability to force them to do something.

An anonymous direct democracy? Even representative democracies are struggling to have a fully informed and engaged electorate. I love the ideal here, but practically I don't see it happening. In particular becuase governments have enough power to manufacture fake people to take over a system like that, particularly if it's anonymous.

> (2) the most profitable course of action is for every validator to follow the protocol honestly. In ethereum's PoS that's achieved by slashing maliciously misbehaving validators.

> PoW has an orders of magnitude weaker punishment here (just mining rewards for the time spent on mining a minority chain). Most DPoS systems rely on the assumption that a majority is always honest, even if it makes financial sense to not be - eg. Cardano's Ouroboros.

We have law enforcement and justice systems to account for when people do not act honestly. History proves time and again when the conditions are right, people will not act according the time's concept of honesty.

Blockchain was meant to solve the Byzantine Generals Problem right? That describes the need to communicate when not all actors are reliable.

Humans are not always reliable, sometimes maliciously so.

The bigger problem is that honesty is a question of morality, not logic. How can you encode that into a smart contract? Doesn't this mean we're swapping a judicial system for an unelected one?

> In the case of image NFTs, it's an improvement on physical art. The point of buying physical art is to either signal wealth, or to use it for money laundering. Image NFTs are infinitely superior for the first - because they are globally visible (as opposed to a physical piece of art) and fake NFTs are impossible (so you can't buy a cheap replica and pretend you spent a fortune on the original). They are much better for money laundering because they are inherently global (no transport issues) and evade identity checks in the banking system.

I mean I'm glad you said the quiet part out loud, because outside of money laundering it's hard to describe the NFT craze as anything but a bit suss.

Some of us buy physical art for the beauty and intrigue of it. Though not from Sotheby's.

NFT's as a record/marketplace for a physical asset backed by a means to legally enforce the ownership is something I can see happening.

But NFT's that record a log of ownership over a JPEG?

What's stopping me from making my own chain, and selling the same JPEG NFT there?

And then, how do we prevent the wash trading that's artificially inflating prices?

> Therefore, nobody buys expensive existing art just because they like it, which leaves two reasons I mentioned.

Ha agreed, though if they do they'd usually loan it to a museum. There are collectors who do it for the love of the art though, they exist.

> Yes. The entire history of human civilization consists of solving social problems with technology.

Fundamentally disagree here. At macro and micro scales social problems are solved with social solutions. I've seen this at enterprise levels and startups. If you try to tackle a social problem with a technical solution you alienate people and make the problem worse.

Technical solutions to social problems lack the humanity required for a meaningful fix.

A hilarious example is the type of solution that led to Goodhart's Law[0].

    When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
Probably the most famous example being[1]:

> In India while it was a British Colony, the Colonial Rulers wanted to reduce the number of snakes. So they offered to pay for dead snakes brought to them. Goodhart’s Law: Enterprising Indians began to breed and farm snakes to kill and get their reward, which was much easier than killing wild snakes, actually increasing the total snake population.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart's_law [1] https://www.ideatovalue.com/lead/nickskillicorn/2021/08/good...

Re: Web3 is centralized

#353
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A blockchain is publicly-accessible, append-only database, so again I don't know how an append-only data structure can help you revoke access to some content. Not to mention that Twitter can always choose to not display your tweets unless you grant them a license, regardless of where these tweets are hosted.

even if you could update state* once you gave access to anything it's out of your control as it might be cached somewhere else. This is why I mentioned for future changes rather than what you already allowed. And you are right twitter can still have that clause, and they can cause they have somethign to offer (i.e. a userbase) but if the content of everyone would be somewhere else other competiors would be able to of…

> And you are right twitter can still have that clause, and they can cause they have somethign to offer (i.e. a userbase) but if the content of everyone would be somewhere else other competiors would be able to offer it and then competiion for users would tend to make those terms more accessible to those that care enough to read them.

This seems incompatible with the goal of control: instead of giving Twitter free rein to reproduce your content however, you’re giving everyone on the internet the ability to do what they want with it, completely unrestricted.

(Yes, you could DMCA then but then the blockchain is useless)

Re: Web3 is centralized

#354
post #307
post #49

Web3 feels like the next grift after we caught on to ICO's. From the article: > The problem here is the profit motive: people who are working on web3 generally want to get paid for it, but it's fundamentally harder to extract rent from truly decentralized systems than it is from centralized ones. Because of that, people end up building systems that are centralized at their core, with some aesthetics of decentralizati…

> Yes, sometimes the most exciting things are emergent, but it's been over a decade of the blockchain field of dreams and we're still talking in hypotheticals are what it will be good for. There’s a reason our current financial infrastructure is still being run on cobol: if it only took 10 years to build it would have been updated already. Financial tech takes a very long time and with a revolutionary idea such a cry…

I agree, and that's very much why I remain interested to see what comes of it.

If it's going to move forward it has to shake the sleazy image with all the scams, pump and dumps, Ponzi-schemes and market manipulation.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#355
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It smells like the .com boom/bust all over again. Like you say, money drives the discussion, not tech. Which is indeed unfortunate.

> It smells like the .com boom/bust all over again [..] Question: does being old enough to have lost money* - and having done so** - back in the .com bubble correlate with whether you're positive or negative about Web3 ? "This Time Is Different" has been said by sales types since at least the year 1637 * Full disclosure: yes, I am ** Full disclosure: yes, I did .. not enough to have mattered, but enough to [still] re…

I made money during the dotcom era but am still negative because it reminds me of the worst parts of day trading. Not pets.com or Kozmo, which for all of their flaws were at least building something lots of people want to buy (both could have worked with less rushed expansion), but the sleazy pump-and-dump companies which had “here a miracle happens” in their business plans. I remember so many people doing the same “who cares about value, this number is going up!” pitch.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#356
post #288

The problem with web3 is not that it's centralized -- that's irrelevant. The fundamental problem with all crypto"currencies" is as follows: the world uses real currencies and there is only one way this enters into the world of crypto"currencies": by someone selling a coin to someone else. Thus, regardless of what crypto"currency" we are talking about, it would be a zero sum game if not for transaction fees. However,…

...Or you can use a cryptocurrency like NANO (I'm sure there are others very similar), which is feeless and has nearly no delay to transfer. If there is a scam hiding in there, I've yet to find it.

Honestly I've stepped back from the entire crypto space for a while now, the whole space pisses me off, it's all hype and no progress. Or rather, the work that was needed to be done has now been done (feeless, near instantaneous, anonymous, and consensus based transfers of money) is now possible, and yet I still hear the screams about bitcoin daily. It's an outdated technology. A paradigm shift for software for sure, but a now long outdated one.

I'm sure bitcoin maximalists will reply in rage, but I can't convince you to see the truth through your speculative emotions, so I won't even try.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#357
post #288

The problem with web3 is not that it's centralized -- that's irrelevant. The fundamental problem with all crypto"currencies" is as follows: the world uses real currencies and there is only one way this enters into the world of crypto"currencies": by someone selling a coin to someone else. Thus, regardless of what crypto"currency" we are talking about, it would be a zero sum game if not for transaction fees. However,…

Web3 is a buzzword that makes it sound like something which it isn't, same with AI - dumb but pattern recognition is still useful. I wouldn't call trustless programmable money with defined supply irrelevant since there is no alternative in the mainstream financial system. You are talking about just one function - transfer of value - but that already works just fine. For your points: You can have much lower transactio…

> You are talking about just one function - transfer of value

I do not. I am talking of the only way money enters this system. If there would be no money in the system no one would care. At the end of the day, in this time and place, our society decided money is the ultimate goal. I don't like it but it's what it is.

> You can have much lower transaction fees than in Visa / Mastercard

First of all: it's nonsensical to compare money to ... money? the problem with crypto"currency" is that it's not money and it's crossing that barrier which makes players lose money. Second, it's not inherent to the money system to use Visa / Mastercard. You can use other ways to transfer money -- but again, this is irrelevant.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#358
post #288

The problem with web3 is not that it's centralized -- that's irrelevant. The fundamental problem with all crypto"currencies" is as follows: the world uses real currencies and there is only one way this enters into the world of crypto"currencies": by someone selling a coin to someone else. Thus, regardless of what crypto"currency" we are talking about, it would be a zero sum game if not for transaction fees. However,…

Though I generally agree with the sentiment, there is one significant use case -- transferring money across country borders. Currently, transaction fees on cash transactions are much much higher than they are on cryptocurrencies (maybe except bitcoin) and so this would mean that, in theory, they could be used as a way to transfer goods across country borders.

Is this true though?

I can send $1000 USD to someone in France who wants EUR for $7 with Western Union.

How does Bitcoin or Ethereum let me do this for less?

Re: Web3 is centralized

#359
post #288

The problem with web3 is not that it's centralized -- that's irrelevant. The fundamental problem with all crypto"currencies" is as follows: the world uses real currencies and there is only one way this enters into the world of crypto"currencies": by someone selling a coin to someone else. Thus, regardless of what crypto"currency" we are talking about, it would be a zero sum game if not for transaction fees. However,…

What you describe is not special to crypto. Every currency exchange is "always winning". The rest is not very logical.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#360
post #288

The problem with web3 is not that it's centralized -- that's irrelevant. The fundamental problem with all crypto"currencies" is as follows: the world uses real currencies and there is only one way this enters into the world of crypto"currencies": by someone selling a coin to someone else. Thus, regardless of what crypto"currency" we are talking about, it would be a zero sum game if not for transaction fees. However,…

> In the real world, the amount of currency increases when a bank extends a loan which then creates more value by such things as being using as capital, allowing you to enjoy a home now instead of decades later and so forth

Or the central bank decides to flip a switch and create trillions of dollars in money with the stoke of a key and distributes it to parties it feels needs them (mostly banks and other financial parties [0]).

This is also a very short term limited view of money. A stable currency is not the norm for most of history. Even today's relatively stable system in western democracies is very short.

If you take a longer, broader view of currency and monetary policy you'll see that the system is not sustainable an there is value in an alternative money supply thats based on rules and not reliant on the wisdom of central bankers appointed by politicians. Whether crypto is the answer is different question. But to think that somehow western central bankers are beyond approach and figured it all out in the last 50 years is naive.

[0] https://www.covidmoneytracker.org/

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