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Wrapping Up 2021. Leaving C++

izzys.casa

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Re: Wrapping Up 2021. Leaving C++

#201

Post by nyanpasu64 »

tialaramex wrote: post #176
nyanpasu64 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, Rust's multiple named functions is usually (not always) more clear than multiple function overloads, and practically always better than constructor overloads (you'll never convince me that std::vector's constructors are sane). However (IIRC) I wish it was possible in Rust to abstract over arity, in the case of function forwarding and tuple overloading.

I'd certainly like to be able to write std::cmp::max(a, b, c, d) and find the maximum of the four parameters. But even when I most want that, I certainly don't want it enough to use C++

Oh, another thing I forgot is that you need a crate and a macro to zip 3 or more iterators together.

Re: Wrapping Up 2021. Leaving C++

#202

Post by otherlangs »

As someone with health and burnout issues who cares about correctness and fell out of love with C++ some time ago (but hasn't really gotten into Rust or Zig) I feel like I can sympathize a bit with Isabella.

In my case my employer terminated me 2 months ago following an ischemic attack. I had been neglecting my health and working an unsustainable schedule since 2020. Now my family is helping me make lifestyle changes I need.

The experience made me rethink my work priorities. Correctness is important to me but I'm less interested in solving the same correctness problems I've solved for many years in imperative languages like C++, Go or Java when statically-typed functional languages like Haskell offer the promise of preventing many of those problems .

So now I'm teaching myself Haskell. It's not easy but I'm learning a lot and it's helping me understand other languages better as well. I hope my next employer shares similar views about correctness and functional languages.

Re: Wrapping Up 2021. Leaving C++

#203

Post by nyanpasu64 »

smitty1e wrote: post #12
einpoklum wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure we will. Just like we switched to C++ 2.0 aka Java.

I keep waiting for the announcement that some propeller-head has implement the Rust borrow checker as a template metaprogram, with the caveat that nothing larger than "Hello, world." compiles within a month.

Google tried and failed, and they didn't even try to model reborrowing (a hidden gotcha in Rust): https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vSt2VB1zQAJ6...

Re: Wrapping Up 2021. Leaving C++

#204

Post by [deleted] »

naxcl wrote: post #120
its_bbq wrote: post #64

I met Izzy a few times at cppcon and always came away impressed. I have basically the same thoughts about the c++ community -- it burns people out and it's filled with a ton of negativity and ego and it's very hard to get anything done. While I was at Google I spent some time trying to push for some sort of codes of conduct after a colleague of mine had a reasonable proposal ripped to shreds in email groups with all…

You do not need a code of conduct for complaining about a sexist remark inside a corporation. CoCs ruin projects, create a stifled atmosphere of hate and distrust and it is always the wrong people who obtain power. Persons who are vocally against CoCs can very well be on your side regarding sexist remarks. Personal attacks are difficult to quantify. Often they are a last resort for shutting up someone who thinks they…

[deleted]

Re: Wrapping Up 2021. Leaving C++

#205

Post by ncmncm »

bluGill wrote: post #87
its_bbq wrote: post #64

I met Izzy a few times at cppcon and always came away impressed. I have basically the same thoughts about the c++ community -- it burns people out and it's filled with a ton of negativity and ego and it's very hard to get anything done. While I was at Google I spent some time trying to push for some sort of codes of conduct after a colleague of mine had a reasonable proposal ripped to shreds in email groups with all…

>inappropriate sexist If this was internal Google communication as it sounds then you should go to HR about sexist communication, if that doesn't get results then go to the victim and encourage a lawsuit against the company

Hint: HR is not your friend.

HR's primary job, overriding all its other jobs, is to spy on you on behalf of corporate. Second is to save the company money on lawsuit payouts.

The only saving grace is that, sometimes, a low-level HR functionary has not got the memo that this is their primary job, and might actually do something helpful.

The primary job of the Director of HR, an the other hand, is always simple corruption, graft, kickbacks, as much of it as they can manage to keep track of. It does no good to try to hire one who won't; they didn't get into HR not to. So, if you think your HR director seems not to, it just means they are playing a deeper game, one probably more harmful to you and the company.

Re: Wrapping Up 2021. Leaving C++

#206

Post by ncmncm »

Shorel wrote: post #183
bluGill wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It became clear that the author isn't willing to consider anything that isn't 100% perfect in every way anymore. One tool needs some work - your whole language is out. Ada is on my list of languages to learn something about (more than the 12 languages in 10 weeks class I took back when I got my degree which is the only time I touched it). It has some interesting features (particularly the SPARK variant)

But we do. The value I get from this kind of articles, and I did read the article, is actually in the comments here. Adding ADA to this language feature comparison is interesting to me.

BTW, there is no language named ADA.

Re: Wrapping Up 2021. Leaving C++

#207

Post by ncmncm »

exitcode0 wrote: post #18

You will always be welcome in the Ada++ community : ) http://www.adapplang.com/

I got as far into the tutorial as "Ada++ requires variable declarations to be made in a specific area called the declarative part", said "that's stupid" (actually out loud), and abandoned it.

Then wrote this. (You're welcome.)

Even C ditched its separate section for variable declarations.

Re: Wrapping Up 2021. Leaving C++

#208

Post by pyjarrett »

ncmncm wrote: post #206
Shorel wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we do. The value I get from this kind of articles, and I did read the article, is actually in the comments here. Adding ADA to this language feature comparison is interesting to me.

BTW, there is no language named ADA.

We should cut people some slack about this, especially considering that the language itself is case insensitive :P

I'm not sure what actually triggers the confusion about this, but it is Ada, not ADA. It's not an acronym, I'm curious about the origin of the incorrect all caps version, but it seems like there's a forgotten historical reason for this.

Re: Wrapping Up 2021. Leaving C++

#209

Post by ncmncm »

flohofwoe wrote: post #173
rurban wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WG 14 is C, WG 21 is C++. You are probably aware of the pace of evolution in the C language. Nothing happens, and if it's a horror show. The maximally take the easiest thing from C++, but usually the worst.

On the other hand, the advantage of the glacial pace of change in the C standard is that the language hasn't been ruined yet. One of the most important tasks of the committee should be to say "no", even if that's not a popular thing to do. The right place for experiments in the C ecosystem is outside the standard, in libraries and language extensions.

C started out ruined. But ate the world anyway.

The C++ committee says "no" overwhelmingly more often than not. That is much of what Izzy was complaining of.

Izzy got more stuff into C++ than 99.99% of others who tried. Ze spread zerself too thin pushing too many things. It is a major achievement to get one thing in.

Re: Wrapping Up 2021. Leaving C++

#210

Post by ncmncm »

synergy20 wrote: post #118

I actually like C++, it is not perfect for sure but it's getting better, plus the famous "there are only two kinds of languages: one that nobody uses, one that many complain". In the end there is really no alternative, in fact there is none. I could not find a language to replace c++ myself in practice, so I will keep using it all the way.

This is it.

Izzy could abandon all C++ committee work, like the other 4 million C++ programmers, and just use the language to get work done and accomplish goals. Maybe publish a library or two in Boost that might take off, and finally be pushed into the Standard by appreciative users.

Abandoning a productive language because of not getting enough of your proposals accepted looks pretty sour-grapesy, so to speak.

Almost everybody who got anything into a Standard got only one thing in.

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