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Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

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Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#151

Post by 908B64B197 »

rmbyrro wrote: post #43
zetazzed wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France will build more nuclear, and in the long run solidify its position as a huge exporter of electricity at high rates when wind is low. Weird arbitrage opportunity for them as the neighbors go all in on wind.

Looks like France will be kind of an insurer for energy market. Trading the risk of energy supply shortage for the risk of radioactive accidents.

France seems to be confident regarding nuclear safety.

Most of that engineering is done in-house as well. I wonder what explains this different attitude as compared to their neighbors.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#152

Post by jschveibinz »

wildmanxx wrote: post #45
csunbird wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, and we will end up paying 50% more for our energy usage, just because of political swings.

Which is a good thing. Just converting energy sources is not going to save us. We need to tackle the energy sinks too, i.e., getting smarter about how we use the available energy, i.e., mostly being more energy efficient. ("We" as in "humankind".) Raising prices is the right incentive here. In the long run, +50% is not actually that bad. There is room for a lot more.

I tend to agree with your approach. Charging more for electricity and other energy will likely reduce demand and consumption.

I recently purchased a hybrid vehicle, and I find myself much more conscientious about how much energy I am using.

I wonder: if every house only had a certain allotment of energy each day to use at the “regular” price, would energy consumption go down?

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#153

Post by Traster »

outside1234 wrote: post #11
alexpetralia wrote: post #4

My extremely uninformed understanding is that there is an energy crisis in Europe, and that this will exacerbate the situation.

We should call this the "enable Putin" and "destroy the climate" plan. Honestly, I think we should declare a 50% tax on the gas going through the new Putin Nordstream 2 pipeline and direct the proceeds to NATO. Prices in externalities of gas usage and gets the EU closer to their NATO commitment.

This makes no sense. The gas going through the pipeline is already expensive and it's already used to heat poor peoples homes. Meanwhile, Nato's military power is pretty much irrelevant if the countries of Nato can't piss of Russia because of fear that Putin will close down the pipeline in the middle of winter and watch pensioners freeze to death in their homes.

The single most important move to save the EU from Putin and to decarbonise is to fund green energy like wind, solar and particularly invest in energy storage solutions to smooth out unreliable sources. It's very difficult to compete with Gas turbines in terms of supply and responsiveness.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#154

Post by swampthing »

Ekaros wrote: post #50
epivosism wrote: post #31

Despite a lot of investigation it looks like Fukushima did not cause an increase in cancer deaths (and there were no direct deaths from it either). It's sad and strange that we treat it as if it had caused hundreds or thousands of deaths, and our response to it is to increase fossil fuel use, which definitely will lead to more death and pollution. Read for yourself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_disa…

Maybe saddest part of the whole Fukushima was that it was entirely avoidable. If proper planning and implementation was actually done. I expect Germany and European nations being culturally better to get things fixed. My understanding was that root-cause was old design and not sufficiently secure back-up power and failure to get such on site. Which could have been done, but was not.

The Japanese aren’t exactly known for being sloppy or cutting corners. What is the cultural difference you’re referring to?

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#155

Post by la_fayette »

luckylion wrote: post #123
la_fayette wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This summer a large part of germany was completely flooded. This was a natural disaster, which might happen at higher frequencies nowadays. The alarming systems in place competely failed and around 200 people drowned in Germany. There are so many things which could happen and countries like Germany are not prepared for.

> This was a natural disaster, which might happen at higher frequencies nowadays. You don't build nuclear power plants in narrow valleys with known flood events though. I mean, you also don't build wind turbines in swamps and hope they don't fall over, or put solar panels on your roof and don't fasten them.

https://www.wiseinternational.org/nuclear-monitor/770/floodi...

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#156

Post by trhway »

zetazzed wrote: post #18
SimonSword91 wrote: post #7

I live in Germany and I wonder, what the consequences will be of shutting down both coal and nuclear in very short time. My guess is, we will pay for nuclear energy from France and coal energy from Poland when wind slows down. The new government tries to accelerate the construction of renewable energy but I think their plans will fail because of worker shortage and supply chain problems.

France will build more nuclear, and in the long run solidify its position as a huge exporter of electricity at high rates when wind is low. Weird arbitrage opportunity for them as the neighbors go all in on wind.

In 20 years they will be pressured by their green neighbors to shut down and will be stuck with a pile of hard to get rid of nuclear junk.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#157

Post by Ekaros »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #135
SimonSword91 wrote: post #7

I live in Germany and I wonder, what the consequences will be of shutting down both coal and nuclear in very short time. My guess is, we will pay for nuclear energy from France and coal energy from Poland when wind slows down. The new government tries to accelerate the construction of renewable energy but I think their plans will fail because of worker shortage and supply chain problems.

Germany's primary energy source is now coal, now way they can shut it down. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coal-tops-wind-as-primary-elec... This is so stupid, what are they thinking?

How to win votes? In the end it's all politics, where feelings are more important than true solutions.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#158

Post by Zigurd »

wildmanxx wrote: post #53
dv_dt wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avoiding nuclear will save you money in the long run though

Sad that this is downvoted. The hidden cost of nuclear is one of the biggest issue the tech-affine crowds tend to ignore and not want to hear about. You may not pay it on your utility bill, but society and later generations will pay it.

Almost every nation with nuclear power has underestimated decommissioning costs. Those costs will go on long after the lifespan of the power plant.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#159

Post by thg »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #48
the-dude wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How come trade is seen as a peace maker for inside the EU, but not seen as a peace maker when done with Russia? AFAIK Russia has been a trustworthy gas supplier and it would be economical suicide if they proved not to be trustworthy.

The threat isn't directly to invade Germany. It is to stop Germany from intervening when Russia invade it's neighbor countries. EG if you embargo us or provide Military Support to russian opponents, will shut down the power in Germany and you'll freeze to death. A short-term gas disruption will cause Russia to lose some money, but would be much more dangerous for Germany

Russian gas makes up only 1/3rd of Germany's total amount of imported gas and only because it's cheap. If the Russians really were to turn off the valve, the amount could be made up for with other sources. By far not instantly, but nobody would freeze to death, either.

Germany's alleged dependence on Russian gas is mostly a fairytale of US propaganda.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#160

Post by donio »

jpxw wrote: post #46
smarx007 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, although never say never...

Well nothing is risk-free. But in my opinion in any case the risk of allowing climate change to rampantly continue vastly outweighs the infinitesimal risks of nuclear.

"infinitesimal risk" would be something that is unlikely to happen once in a million years or even the lifetime of the planet which is clearly not the case. It's "acceptable risk" or "justifiable risk" at best.
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